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The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child

    Mar 4, 2017
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    To those that are not up to date N4 is coming and is scheduled for Summer of 2020.

    As the thread title says, this is the tread for all the Comments about N4, including and not limited to N3 and its transition to N4, problems with N3 that people think need fixing to N4, suggestions, ideas, wishlist's and everything around it, I would like to see all discussion be directed here so we can monitor it in one thread and not a myriad of minor threads.

    Now the most basic rule of the thread, be polite this is not a thread to be dissolved in arguing who has the correct ideas and who has not, all ideas are welcome and all comments and criticism is appreciated, as long as the tone is polite.

    chromedog, ZlaKhon, zapp and 5 others like this.
  2. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child

    Mar 4, 2017
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    #2 psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
    ZlaKhon, zapp, Stiopa and 2 others like this.
  3. roobot

    roobot Well-Known Member

    Jul 25, 2018
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    Personally I would like Brawler Doctors and Engineers reduced to 18 points each, and maybe a Druze LT with panzerfaust option. Anaconda kind of needs a boost too, but I guess that would come with any TAG upgrades that appear in N4! That's pretty much it! Sorry if this should go in a future Na2 thread!
  4. Werekill

    Werekill Well-Known Member

    Jul 22, 2019
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    Great, thread number 10 lol. It's a shame that there's no easy way to just merge threads.

    @psychoticstorm Is there any way that we could take the most active thread from this sub and make it the stickied thread, changing the OP to you? Then locking the other threads? I just can't remember if the OP-change is a Xenforo plugin or if it's a default thing.
  5. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

    Oct 11, 2018
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    Instead of +1 damage, TAGs should get +1 burst (maybe even in reactive).
    That might give those iconic troop type the boost it needs.
    Grafa likes this.
  6. spears

    spears Well-Known Member

    Nov 30, 2017
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    So my big wish list of n4 changes in no particular order. Firstly I think Infinity is still in a decent place balance wise so its mainly quality of life changes.

    1. Scrap discounted ways of reaching a similar outcome. The main offenders here are nwi with shock immunity and symbioarmour. If the thing you are trying emulate is making the unit too expensive, in this case an extra wound, review the cost of that wound.
    Edit: I do think that the price point of nwi+shock immune is probably around what a natural second wound should cost.

    2. Anything that allows you to massively trade up in terms of points should carry a risk or have trade offs. Good examples of this in N3 imo are CC (with some exceptions) and adhesive Bs weapons. Cc requires delivery and adhesive bs weapons tend to have reduced burst countering the strength of the ammunition.
    Bad examples are items such as Jammers and the new Riotstoppers, jammers are well documented as being an issue and I think that riotstoppers are pointed fairly low for something that doesn't carry the traditional burst burden of adhl/akralyte cannons. Maybe include warcors in this.

    3. Review the impetuous irregular smoke throwing warband archetype. In part this is a carry on from .2 but the 5 point warband variants have too little thought required at either list building or in game stage.

    4. Visibility mods, smoke shooting and visors are too critical a part of gunfighting prowess. Msv2 costing is particularly weird due to the smoke interaction. Reduce the offensive capability of visors so they can come down in price and vis mods go up in price. Msv3 needs a rework.

    5. Ditch cubes. Any rule that currently only effects cubes should effect everybody. Doctor and Sepsitor being the only ones I can think of.

    6. Long skills to auto succeed wip rolls for objectives.

    7. Bs increments should not be equal to other single stat bumps.

    8. Aro holding. This is a weird one but both stealth and dropship hacking seem to cause some wierd aro interactions that aren't especially fun. This could do with cleaning up.

    9.Condense all terrain skills into one.

    10. When spending a command token to move a trooper into a different group you should be able to swap a trooper out of the destination group.

    11. Lof through buildings. I seem to see the houserule that you can fire into or out of but not through buildings being used more and more, this suggests to me that its something that should be considered as an actual rule. It definitely seems to improve the flow of games.

    12. Doors. Much like above I run into a lot of people house ruling doors to be automatic rather than short skill. Maybe this should be considered as a normal rule.

    13. Automedikit. Currently horrifically over costed. Whilst a price drop might help it could be more interesting to do something like make the user get an irregular order to try and heal.

    14. Defensive hackers should be able to ftf hacking attacks declared against troopers in their zoc.

    15. Nudge the poor range bands of sniper rifles -3 0-16 and bring the maximum down to 48 or increase the maximum of other long range weapons to match the sniper.

    16. Spec fire. Balance wise I think its in a good place as its far from guaranteed to work. However when it does work its a poor feeling interaction for the recipient. Maybe this could do with another rework.

    17. Wording of Impact templates. I don't think these actually need changing but the wording does. The number of really experienced players who don't get how the f2f works suggests its not particularly clear.

    18. Wording of fall damage/moving into thin air. As 17 no change but wording, I run into this occasionally where people move into space and fall rather than jump.

    19. Ghost: jumper. No words necessary.

    20. Baggage. I'm not convinced that the bonus victory points from baggage without giving up extra points was a healthy clarification. I'd be in favor of this being good in some domination scenarios whilst carrying a risk in kill points ones.
    #6 spears, Aug 6, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
  7. Leirbag

    Leirbag Well-Known Member

    Nov 23, 2017
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    Some generic skill intrinsic to the type of troop (LI MI HI..etc) according to its cost and supposed roles
    Cthulhu363, Deltervees, Wolf and 2 others like this.
  8. NorthernNomad

    NorthernNomad Well-Known Member

    Mar 28, 2018
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    I feel they need to rework how link teams work, their bonuses feel really tacked on and not flavorful.

    In particular I the SSL2 feels out of place. It would make more sense as SSL1 or a new SSLX which only works like SSl2 but only if the the model is within ZOC of any member of the fire team
    Ariwch, Wolf and Dragonstriker like this.
  9. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

    Dec 19, 2017
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    IMO the biggest issues are weird rule interactions, wonky costs, nested and redundant skills, CC, TAGs and Hacking.
    Barrogh, Ravrohan and Yog.0 like this.
  10. Nathonicus

    Nathonicus Well-Known Member

    Mar 16, 2018
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    I am looking forward to N4. I hope it is a streamlining and polish - not a radical redesign.

    My wish list:

    Condense weapon charts. Instead of separate entries for every variation, do something like this:
    • Rifle RANGES, B, Dmg 13
      • Variant 1: AP Rifle - spec ammo
      • Variant 2: Breaker,
      • Etc.
    Encourage smaller armies. Starting in 2nd edition, the game has always felt best to me when it's operating in the 10-12 model range. ITS format seems to encourage 16+ order lists. On a 4x4 table it starts to feel crowded. It also loses the covert ops with deniable assets feel when both sides are bringing small armies. This is more of an issue with ITS I suppose.

    Clarify Play by Intent (or lack thereof). I think this is enough of an issue that it needs to be addressed when not immediately obvious.

    Include a selection of Asymmetrical Missions.
    I do appreciate ITS and the attempt at bringing fairness to competitive play. However Infinity SHINES as a simulator/rpg lite. I would love some narrative, asymmetrical missions to show people that ITS is only one way to play.

    Condense Hacking Programs: I like the idea that has been posted of having a core of programs, and different devices give different bonuses. then add a few upgrades. Currently, it feels like there are far too many. (Thanks to Captain Spud for the hacking helper!)
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Nov 23, 2017
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    A small note on doors.

    I really dislike automatic doors because it makes defensive play inside buildings completely brainless. It's far too easy to engineer situations where only particular models inside the house is seen and have the door automatically close if the main piece goes down or faces off against something difficult. In particular it makes any form of No LOF attack much much easier.
    At the same time opening doors shouldn't be bothersome or people stop playing with them at all.

    I think doors should be openable as part of a short movement skill. Closing requires Activate skill.

    Above all else, though, doors (and windows) really need to be consistently arbitrated in the rules. It is vital for gameplay balance of anything that doesn't require LOF, Marker state units, and any form of differing troop mobility, and a specific house rule will drastically increase or decrease certain units' value.
  12. Cneo

    Cneo Member

    Nov 24, 2017
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    Just a few thoughts:

    It seems to me that the TAG need a few changes to improve its role in the battlefield, very undefined today. They cost a lot of points and they usually die as soon as any other troop type.

    The high ARM attribute doesn't guarantee the survival in N3 because of the amount of weapons that ignore o reduce it.

    Today, the most played TAG are the ones which give the opponents some BS negative modifiers so I think it could be a good way to improve its survival options with more equipment like: Mimetism, Camouflage, Full Auto, Nanoscreen...

    Another way to protect them maybe changing the effects of the AP ammunition by limiting their armor reduction only to Infantry or REM classes. We can stop killing Jotums or Avatars with SMG and Pistol shoots.

    You could create a new type of anti armour ammo for our loved Missile Launchers, Panzerfausts, Autocannons,...and assure that only really heavy weapons could penetrate our big guys armor.

    TAG are also vulnerable in ARO actions so let's give them B2 or maybe Total Reaction skill.
    redeemer, Wolf, Dragonstriker and 2 others like this.
  13. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child

    Mar 4, 2017
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    No unless we want to risk it and make the threads disappear in the ether, has happened before can happen again, the already existing threads will be closed with links to this thread.
    Urobros, A Mão Esquerda and Werekill like this.
  14. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

    Nov 25, 2017
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    Repost of something i wrote in another topic:

    I would like if they could redo ammo and damage type for more clarity.
    For example, N, DA and EXP could be N1, N2 and N3 (read: normal 1 hit, 2 hits, 3 hits). Or even A1, A2, A3 (Armor 1, Armor 2, Armor 3, to indicate you roll 1, 2 or 3 hits under the ARM stat).
    Nano and DT could be B1 and B2 (BTS 1 hit, 2 hits)
    Same for AP => AP1, AP/DA => AP2, AP/EXP => AP3.
    Breaker => BP1 (BTS Piercing 1 hit)
    Flash and Stun => F1 and F2 (Flash 1 hit and Flash 2 hits)

    You got the idea :) Same things should have same names.
  15. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

    Nov 24, 2017
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    Completely agree with your points (except the 12 models range, I feel more confortable with 14).
    Nathonicus likes this.
  16. nazroth

    nazroth 'well known Nomad agitator'

    Apr 25, 2017
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    I'm very hyped about N4. This is something that the community asks for time and time again. Great to see CB listens.

    Now, for the list of problems, suggestions etc.

    The book: I would like to see N4 cover ALL THE RULES, not just rules from N3 book. I see a new edition as a good opportunity to take all the existing rules and put them together in a reliable, orderly fashion.
    On that note I don't think the book should contain profiles. Profiles are accessible 24/7 in download section and Army 6. No need to include them in the books. Especially when some of these tend to get outdated pretty fast with some minor tweaks and simply due to print errors. If you really want to add them - make a 3-book bundle, one for rules, one for fluff and one for updated profiles - all profiles, including recent releases.

    Grey areas: Wrap up grey areas such as open/private information and intent. Even if it would be in the lines of "we don't care, we support both ways of play".

    Avoid confusion, such as "Smoke Dodge" which could simply be renamed. Just as an example anything in the lines of "Smoke Evasion" would do as it does not contain a "Dodge" Keyword.

    Some stuff could use a name simplification. Good example is Frenzy. I assume that everyone looks up "Frenzy" instead of "Fury: Frenzy". I doubt anybody cares about "Fury" part when looking through Wiki or the book.

    Hacking: I would like to see the list of programs reduced in size with all the fancy groups renamed to simply "defensive", "support" etc. instead of "claw" and "pussy" and "whatever". Defensive and White hacking device both need a total revamp, that will allow to defend wider spectrum of targets. @spears suggested being able to defend friendly troops within ZOC - seems like a great suggestion.

    Weapons: Get rid of fancy names whereas weapons differ just by ammo type. Great examples are regular Mines and E-Maulers. Why not E/M Mines?

    Crits: Auto-win is super important and would like it to stay. I would like Auto-wound to go and be replaced with either normal, or some kind of modified armor roll instead.


    TAGs are divided into two categories:
    1) TAGs who have it all,
    2) Potatoe TAGs, dat ain't got none,
    I would like to see N4 bring balance between TAGs and change one thing: Remote Presence TAGs Engineering not rerollable via use of Command Tokens, while none-Remote Presence TAGs get an Engineering reroll via use of Command Token.

    This would help simple Armour + Gun TAGs see some action, being worse but easier to maintain functional, whereas would see some of the best 15BS, crazy cool stuff Marker State TAGs less dominant in TAG vs TAG encounters. Especially now, when let's be honest Pano is no longer WIP 12 Engineer faction, but easily WIP 13-16 thanks to Monstertruckers, Tech-Bee and Regular +2 WIP Spec-Ops.

    Guijia: For god's sake, buff the Guijia. Get her NCO or LT lvl 2 and Martial Arts lvl 1 for no points increase,

    Tech-Bee: Her bonus shouldn't apply to WIP overall, but to Engineering (repair etc.) tests ONLY. Otherwise you get that Hacker, Doctor, Engineer WIP 16 ... in Pano, who has the best TAGs and can reroll failed repair rolls.

    AD troops: I think that new AD rules (no template) should stay. Playing AD troops was never more fun and most importantly less problematic. Just place the miniature, roll, see what happens.


    I would like to see Nested Skills gone and each skill added to particular profile separately instead. This would help new players understand each option they have at their disposal, but also will make things cleaner, even though it will take up more space in the printed lists.

    Redo Fatality lvl 2. If Critical Hits get redesigned to no auto-wound, maybe add 3dmg on Crits with Fatality lvl 2? Example: Fatality lvl 1 +1dmg, Fatality lvl 2 +1dmg from lvl 1, but on a crit +3dmg instead.

    CC skills: One table to rule them all CC skills, with certain skills being updated to certain effect plus Martial Arts table. Why Protheion isn't simply vampire effect + access to basic Martial Arts?

    That's my list. I hope for the best.

    (Sorry @Koni - I promised to avoid certain areas of the forum. New edition is just such an important thing for my favorite game. I hope you don't mind this one post.)
  17. Click2kill

    Click2kill Well-Known Member

    Apr 13, 2018
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    My suggestion and wish list for game rules, would be allow all troopers to hold action when forced to declare ARO in zone of control, or a fix to ZoC abuse. its a very cheeky move to enter a troop's ZoC, but not enter LOS, then after forced to idle or change face, move your troop into their LOS and right past them, denying them the shot they were ready to take.
  18. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

    Nov 23, 2017
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    Just to clarify some points from my CC revamp post (linked above), since I didn't have a chance to respond before it was closed. I am fully aware that an increase in burst with the same modifiers and CC values today would swing things far too much in the OP direction. I would assume that CC values would decrease across the board with the increase in burst.

    The other is that CC specialists are often times better off just shooting, and that's not right. Take the speculo I mentioned before against a Fusilier as @ijw mentioned. In CC with surprise attack from the back (the Fusi can CC attack back): The fusilier has a 35% chance to survive.
    Shoot at him from the back with a BSG instead? 15.8% chance of survival. And if you took the combi rifle version, it's even less.

    The reason I use the Speculo in these comparisons is because it's the unit that is almost guaranteed to get into CC. (TO) Camo infiltrators (Caliban, ninja, etc.) have a decent chance, but they have to dance around mines and can't survive a discover success like the Speculo can. In other words, she may not be Kitsune, but CC20 with MA3 is certainly still considered a CC specialist. And before you argue that mono CCW is not the weapon you should be using against poor Angus, a Caliban in the same situation kills him with a higher percentage with a BSG (or any other BS weapon, actually) from behind than with a surprise protheion attack (though the percentages here are probably close enough that you'd CC just to get the powerup) as well.

    Finally, about some of the choices in bonuses generally (and guard, specifically), I looked at the tables and tried to choose what was more prominent so as not to change things more than necessary. Guard starts off as just a damage mod before level 3 when it increases burst as well, which is why I went with damage. Thematically, it probably does make more sense to increase burst instead, but with the increased native burst to MA, I thought the increased damage for guard would be fine if it were paired with MA.
  19. Kiwi Steve

    Kiwi Steve Well-Known Member

    Mar 20, 2018
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    This has always bothered me. As it works right now, because my reactive model hears the active model coming, I am less prepared to shoot than if the active model has stealth or is further away from me and I don't hear him.

    Stealth should not be a penalty that you choose not to use when you get close to an enemy model.

    Perhaps allowing a "hold fire" reaction where reactive model gets a shot if the active troop moves into LOS with 2nd half of order, but it still has to be declared so would forgo change facing /reset to do it.
    NorthernNomad and Click2kill like this.
  20. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

    Feb 22, 2017
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    Think of opting to not use stealth as intentionally making a noise to distract them and then darting past. It's like how most stealth games include noisemaker items so that you can make guards look away.
    Keyrott, Ariwch, Random and 7 others like this.
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