1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

N4 wishlisting

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Zewrath, Aug 3, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,575
    Likes Received:
    2,387
    [​IMG]

    So.. with the announcement of N4 coming soon, what do you guys wish for the upcoming edition change?
    Personally I wish for all Martial Arts Tables to die under a tractor and made into 1 simple table. Like, Protheion would just be a rule that used the generic Martial Arts Table, only it forced you to roll a BTS save and get eaten, or Guard would simple use the generic Martial Arts Table and make you immune to Surprise Attack CC. Streamlining like that.

    What’s your input?
     
    ZlaKhon, SpectralOwl and Ogid like this.
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    8,279
    Likes Received:
    10,355
    Sixth Sense finally fixed.
    Full removal of rules hidden inside examples.
    Reduction in cost for CC values in general (they literally have a +0 rangeband at 0-0").
    Higher base burst of CC Attacks.
    Removed separation between normal rules anand Human Sphere (i.e. all rules at release added in same compendium)
    Critical Hits fixed so it's written under the headline Critical Hits instead of being replicated everywhere.
    Important interactions repeated (Sixth Sense cancelling Stealth should go under both skills)
    Actual rules for how Impact Templates work in an order where you move into CC with the target.

    Actual terrain rules that makes sense and are not expressed as optional. I mean movement is only the most important aspect of a tactical game, why should the thing that has the most impact on movement be optional.
    Oh, and also more elaborated guidelines for terrain (how many large pieces, how many small, what makes a large piece, how much Terrain terrain, how much visibility zones, etc)
     
    ZlaKhon, Alfy, Stiopa and 11 others like this.
  3. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2018
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    755
    From the top of my head:
    An in depth review and a rewrite of the rules: Perfectly defined game termns used consistently with an explanation of how to read the rulebook (when 2 bullet points should be read together, rules priority, if there could be new rules in examples...), no more rules in examples, rules well structured (plus if a rule make a reference to other rule, spell out which part of the rule it's refering; no more holes please), every relevant ability interaction should be spelled out. Plus a living rulebook and no fear to make changes. I wrote about a 3 step system some time ago that could be relevant here.
    A player should be able to read the rules and solve any game interaction without any problem.

    A review of sectorials and fireteams, the new mixed fireteams are cool and let some "weaker" profiles have a niche; I really like that change. But the inclusion of the most effective models in those (Kamau, Rui Shi...) should be at least revised, that's too meta defined imo. New ways to balance sectorials that make them more different would be awesome (like special rules)
    More regular balance "patches" to keep every faction and sectorial around the same competitive level.

    Smoke and white noise could get revised to make them more interactive.
    Jammers and E/M (isolation) less punishing or at least add something that add more counterplay.
    Hackables HIs could use some minor buffs (or being able to get some supportware)
    Hackers shouldn't be dead weight versus non-hackable armies.
    Limit the total AVA, 6-7 or one kind of unit should be more than enough.
    Revision of CC ability costs, specially when they are applied to every single unit of the faction.
    Multiwound units getting some extra advantages (like needing E/M impacts equal to his actual W/STR attribute to get IMM/ISO or getting defensive MODs versus monofilament for example). Very expensive units contributing 2 orders instead of 1; this is arguable tho.
    Some buffs to 1 combat group lists.

    But anyway, I'm looking forward to see the new N4 content! :D
     
    Yog.0, Lesh', ChoTimberwolf and 6 others like this.
  4. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,146
    Likes Received:
    9,645
    N4?!?!?

    Fuck, there goes getting the actual storyline advanced for another 6 years! :confounded::imp::imp::imp:


    As to what updates and changes they make? Hopefully this is more like the difference between N1 and N2 than between N2 and N3.

    Making and using Keywords consistently across all rules and factions would be my single biggest desire.

    I would also like the points formula adjusted. ARM and BTS are pretty grossly overvalued, as are CC skills without movement/deployment options. If we are totally dreaming, I would want any mid-edition points changes to be applied to all units simultaneously while we are at it. (For example, Bolts would have had their prices adjusted once when newJSA dropped since the cost for Combi+LSG changed, and again when OSS dropped since the cost of Drop Bears changed, and then that final adjustment with the total profile rewrites that happened.)

    CC is still too hard to get into, and may be a little too swingy with 1 die per side. I don't think CC is as deadly as it should be.

    HI need some adjustments, but ideally the points formula change would address most of that. Adding supportware would be a really cool way to buff the HI situationally, and makes the game feel more high-tech (even if D&D does the same thing).
     
    DaRedOne, Devil_Tiger, Ogid and 8 others like this.
  5. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    537
    Likes Received:
    1,160
    I think there is a consensus that thing have to steamlined and simplified. As long as they do that I'm good.

    I also wish they go full pdf. No hard book with the rules. That way they can update the rules and profiles more easily.
     
  6. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    529
    Likes Received:
    864
    Losing rules hidden within the rules. So no stealth for MA. No Veteran lvl 2 with 2 skills incorporated within it ( lvl 2 shouldn't really exist, just give those units NWI and Sixth sense ).
    Total rework of all CC skills. I would make it super simple and just have MA that would give +1 burst. This would mean you could easily differentiate between high CC but no MA brawlers like Yuan Yuan and real cc experts like Ninja. I would also incorporate Assault in MA and not have it as a separate rule. Keep it simple, lose the damn charts.
    Reworking critical mechanic to literally anything that doesn't involve autowound.
    Point adjustment for skills and weapons ( looking at mimetism and smg as biggest problems ).
    Removing redundant/similar skills ( regeneration/automedikit should be just 1 rule, mechanized deployment is redundant, guard is bad design choice and is also unnecessary )
    And bunch of other stuff I am pretty sure will never happen because whenever someone argues for them, people that do playtesting will shut us down. So unless CB themselves push for changes, they won't happen.
    And bonus suggestion that I know people will dislike and will never happen, but rework silhouettes and make all current S2 HI new S value and put them on slightly larger 32mm bases. This would allow for a slight point discount for them and more creative freedom in designing new models.
    Oh and start making plastic models already :-P
     
    Yog.0 and ChoTimberwolf like this.
  7. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2018
    Messages:
    833
    Likes Received:
    1,126
    God, this along with a new, nicely designed unit profile that lists all special abilities so they can be seen and understood at one glance.
    Preferably on the back of the little paper cards inside the blister. People like cards - give them useful cards.

    Also:

    - make fireteams less of an offensive powerhouse by getting rid of the +3 BS bonus and give it some other benefit instead
    - change the way visual mods and their counters work to make them less of a rock-paper-scissors mechanic (de-activateable visors)
    - get rid of stuff like Fatality L2 and Full Auto L1 or attach certain conditions to them in order to weaken their impact
    - adjust the point formula to properly represent things like ARM and SMGs
     
    Yog.0 and SpectralOwl like this.
  8. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,480
    Likes Received:
    2,810
    Martial arts needs a total rework.

    My suggestion is all CC debuffs get rolled into a skill.
    All CC buffs get included in the profile and priced sensibly.
    MA skill is leveled and it functions as +X burst in CC.
     
    Pen-dragon and ChoTimberwolf like this.
  9. Lucian

    Lucian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    184
    Likes Received:
    491
    Oh wow, that was totally unexpected. I wish they'll put all existing rules in core book from the start this time instead of releasing Core N4, then Human Sphere N4 and so on.

    And sell 25 to 32 base expanders! Double the profit!
    I agree on hidden rules, it should at least be transformed to Veteran L2(NWI; Sixth Sence L2).
     
  10. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,480
    Likes Received:
    2,810
    That would mean only 1 limited edition pressure preorder sale.
     
    Shoitaan likes this.
  11. Lucian

    Lucian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    184
    Likes Received:
    491
    Oh please, they can easilly make new book every 1-2 years with new rules like they do now
     
    Yog.0 likes this.
  12. SKOZZOKONZ

    SKOZZOKONZ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2018
    Messages:
    473
    Likes Received:
    659
    [​IMG]
     
  13. SKOZZOKONZ

    SKOZZOKONZ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2018
    Messages:
    473
    Likes Received:
    659
    Oh man this is the biggest, craziest wish of all.
     
  14. Red Harvest

    Red Harvest In the Belmont chair, playing violin

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    424
    Likes Received:
    965
    Que Hacking, en todo, se efume.

    Get the spellcasting out of my Sci Fi game about shooting.

    Fist shaking at the sky moment over. Reduce the amount of hacking programs etc. Either cull or consolidate. The same goes for the bloat in weapons and ammo.

    Leave the core rules alone. The core remains solid. It's all the nonsense bolted onto it ( The overdone CC stuff, por ejemplo)

    Let N4 be a lean and mean N3. All muscle and no fat. Right now N3 is flabby, oh so flabby. It's unsightly. And, contrary to what the obese will tell you, it is unhealthy.
     
  15. Erbent

    Erbent Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    61
    I do realise that this is nowhere near a direction that CB is taking currently, and there is no indication that this will happen with N4, but it would be really nice if CB toned down the accesibility of cheap orders falling out the wazoo, or at least make it roughly equally distributed between factions.
    Thoug LI lists are far from unplayable at this point, for some armies it is still an unreasonable disatvantage to try and get to 16+ regular orders, and for some it is near impossible without taking a comparatively inefficient approach, while others do it easy-peasy and may even have more than one way to do this.
    In my opinion, AVA3 8 point flash pulse bots are the worst example of this, since they are not only one of the cheapest regular orders in the game, but are also a fairly decent midrange ARO at WIP13 with mimetism.
    And they might have been fine if that wasn't added on top of access to fireteams and AVA2 baggage bots while still having roughly 10 points costed cheerleaders with high AVA. It essentially bogs down the variety of semi-competitive builds for factions where such a large amount of cheap orders is presented, since having a lot of orders is always better if you can get those while still taking decent enough troops to accomplish a mission at hand.

    I'd like to quickly go over all the current factions and how easily those can get a bunch of orders for cheap-ish, and how much that impacts in-faction and cross-faction balance, though al of this is from a limited expirience because I haven't played against some factions nearly at all, while some I've played a lot against. I also bring up strong and weak sides of armies here, but my main point is that the gap in the amount of avilable orders and "strong units" to put those orders to a good use is the main thing that stands between current Infinity and a more balanced one.

    Panoceania - all but MO don't have trouble with order pools, but sectorials kinda go overboard with AVA of order batteries together with very strong pricier units.

    Yu-Jing - Aside from Invincibles no problems with orders, and even then there are ways to get a lot, also Kuang-Shi make getting a lot of orders and a lot of strong pieces kinda too easy.

    Ariadna - both vanilla and sectorialls have always been known for bringing a lot of orders to the table and has a lot of ways to do that, but in general they lack in strong top-end of the points and stats units, though they have a lot of ways to make up for that. Orders are not the problem here, but strong hardy units sometimes are.

    Haqqislam - there are not as much access to cheap orders as in Ariadna, but in general units don't cost a whole lot and efficient irregulars nicely complement it all. and AVA3 bots are not super problematic in QK where nearly every unit is amost made ot of paper, and with Ramah being super-elite aside frome those cheap bots it doesn't feel like it gets too much orders too easy.

    Nomads - for the most part no problems with orders,and overall they are not going overboard with accesibility of cheap orders and super-strong pieces.

    ("totally reasonable" whining warning - my main faction incoming)

    CA has always been a faction about getting some strange and unconventiona distribution of equipment and paying through the nose for it, sometimes it works great, sometimes tolerable, and sometimes terrible. in general there's a choice between getting orders, firepower, and mission utility, and it is really hard to take it all, but it's a puzzle to solve and that's okay. what isn't so much okay is that Morats need to choose between the thing that define them as a faction and getting enough orders to do things while not lacking in firepover and mission efficience. honestly I would like them to be a bit cheaper in general, or a bit stronger on a unit-to-unit level, but now they really neither here nor there in terms of what they can do as a faction. Shas are Hyped up as this super OP and all, but really they can't just get a ton of orders and all the good stuff at the same time, and without cheaper Nox hacker and taighas they would knida be in a morat-ish state, but with marker states.
    Onyx is in a good place by the virtue of Unidrones being a linkable line infantry with almost HI resilience for a point cost between standart LI and MI, and there are not a lot of strong top end choices.

    ALEPH - it's pretty allright for Vanilla and to take a lot of orders and some strong units you need to trade off versatility of your list, also Posthumans. SP is kind of okay, can do decent 2 group lists and a good LI. OSS is honestly kind of boring in terms of list building to me personally, and I think are just a bit overboard with easy 16+ orders with counterintelligence.

    Tohaa are still a pain to deal with, but again if they go for a ton of orders then they don't have as much resilience as they could if they used a bit less, though Flash/Stun immunity on mates and counterintelligence promise to be a pain to deal with.

    O-12 are fresh, look super-strong in theory, but they don't have super outrageous concentration of orders and quality, though they are pretty close to that.

    as for NA2 I only payed a bit against Ikari, but the one thing I can say for sure is that the amount of easy orders avilable to Dashat is just bullshit, really, even lack of super-elite rambos doesn't save them in my eyes.

    To sum up, I think Infinity would be better off if CB toned down how much orders ar easily avilable to most factions, but as it is clearly not the way they are going, I'd like to at least see those factions wich are lagging behind being spared some additional cheap orders.
     
    Ogid likes this.
  16. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,575
    Likes Received:
    2,387
    Oh.. another wish would be to hire a 3rd party person to utterly kill every single convoluted/Spanglish sentencing.
     
    Yog.0, ZlaKhon and ChoTimberwolf like this.
  17. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

    Joined:
    May 5, 2017
    Messages:
    2,198
    Likes Received:
    7,151
    I'm all in favor of N4.

    Reshuffling link bonuses is an interesting notion, but it's important to remember that they're the a huge part of how player play and relate to the game.

    If you, for example, get rid of +3 bonuses, you can also rest assured that line trooper SWC boxes might as well not exist, except for their Hackers. They're already teetering on the brink in the age of mixed links, since it's usually a higher cost troop holding the big guns. If they're stuck shooting at BS11, their purpose is nullified. Their Spec Fire options are also nullified.
     
  18. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2017
    Messages:
    2,102
    Likes Received:
    2,872
    I just have one wish: please, don't remove Tohaa as a Faction.
     
    DaRedOne, Stiopa, Berjiz and 8 others like this.
  19. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,480
    Likes Received:
    2,810
    More wishes:

    All fireteam bonuses end.

    I think that's an issue with SWC more than anything. I'd maybe use more line infantry special weapons if they weren't taking them out of the hands of better shots.
     
    AngryPanda and SpectralOwl like this.
  20. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    5,100
    Likes Received:
    5,002
    Yeah, it's looking worrying, unfortunately. I wish you guys the best of luck with that, though.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.