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Baseless N4 Wishlisting/Speculation Thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Hecaton, Aug 3, 2019.

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  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    As some of you probably noticed, CB announced N4 for next year without saying much else about it.

    A streamlining of the rules of the game is something that I and I'm sure plenty of you have been wanting for a while, and I'm very much looking forward to this. If they can make the game more forgiving to learn but still retain the feeling of important decisions and the majority of the game being won on the table and not in the listbuilding stage, the edition will be a success in my eyes.

    Some thoughts:

    1. The relationship between "vanilla" factions and sectorials has changed. Fireteams have changed dramatically in their scope. How do you think CB should, or will, approach this in a new edition? I've heard everything from "delete sectorials" to "delete vanilla," and plenty of ideas about tweaking fireteams, which seem to occupy the position of "maximal firepower" that one would think TAGs and beefy HI units would.

    2. In the edition changeover, are we going to see a long period of extant sectorials/forces, or ones that are on the back burner (MRRF, Acon, Tohaa, etc) not having rules to play with? I'd love to be hype for the changeover with my factions of choice (USARF, Onyx) having rules from the getgo.

    3. Tohaa. Is artichoke going to be formally removed in N4, despite the persistent presence of Spiral? I hope not, as much as I hope the Sukeul, Makaul, and Kaeltar profiles get a serious look from the design team.

    How are you guys feeling? Even if N4 were just a rules streamlining, I could get very hype for it, as that's one of the game's biggest problems (though obviously I think it has enough points in its favor that it's very much worth playing besides that). Are there any other things that you guys want to see addressed in a new edition (setting aside specific weapons and profiles)?
     
  2. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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  3. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Fireteams are a big one in the sense that they are too big of a benefit in my view, so I'd like to see a few changes to how they work.
    The specifics are complicated, of course, but I'd start by reworking the 4-man bonus. Considering how very strong BS mods are in this game, another +3 BS makes some fireteams just too good. What I'd like to see is fireteams having less direct impact on FTF rolls but rather other advantages, such as order efficiency and defensive capabilities.

    In the same vein, I'd like to see visual MODs and their respective counters reworked. I made a thread about being able to de-activate MSVs not too long ago and I feel that this whole section of the game needs to be altered in order to become more interactive and less rock-paper-scissors-y. Having to make actual choices instead of just walking the right piece around the corner and reliably win the FtF would be a nice change, but that's, again, not very easy to do.

    Lastly, give people more incentives to play single CG lists. Spam lists just don't feel right to me given the setting and context, but that'S a very subjective thing.
     
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  4. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    Re value camo as its basically the best thing in the game at the moment in terms of prevent your opponent from interacting with you. Or make it's counter be less costly. That'd be nice
     
  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I feel like a big change like making it so the modifiers for camo and TO camo don't apply when you're shooting might be in order. Who knows, though?
     
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  6. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    To me the biggest issue is its ability to waltz through all defenses an enemy can set up with a move-move at the very least, or still getting you a "win" by eating orders on sniffers, sensor, multiple discover attempts (maybe up the burst of discover?). If you throw enough of it at an enemy, I feel you start with a rather large advantage. I am kinda tired of being quasi-forced to go for mass camp and orders as the most viable option in higher level play.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Possibly, but remember that Impersonation is cheaper that TO Camo + Infiltration and offers two states to eat through with no Biovisor REMs available. There's even worse offenders ;)

    I actually don't think Camo is quite as big of an issue, an order spent move-move tends to be mostly wasted and a successful discover usually means another order needed to recamo, but I do think Sensor should be a bit more common.
     
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  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It's incredibly restrictive about who gets access to that, though.
     
  9. Plex

    Plex Taagma without a scheme

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    I once proposed the notion that maybe models in marker state shouldn't contribute orders to the order pool, and some Ariadna players got howling mad over it... which only made me want it more.

    I'd settle for camo costs going up and/ or msv getting cheaper. More sensors would be great too.
     
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  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That's not really an argument from perspective of balance, though, especially not since all who do are supremely well equipped to work with the benefits (and frankly lack of restrictions) that it entails.

    An AVA 2 Hunzakut with Basic Impersonation would be less impactful than Fiday are.

    (Basically it's not restrictive if the AVA perfectly matches or exceeds what you need, it's only restrictive if AVA is not enough (see Guilang))
     
  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It'd be fucking huge because it would mean that Druze and Dashat would get access to Impersonation. My point is that you only need to worry about impersonation against a select few armies (though that's recently expanded to include Tohaa, Spiral, and Onyx).
     
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  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    So what? You still need to plan for it - not that I was suggesting Hunzakuts get Impersonation, I was suggesting Impersonators being more like Hunzakuts and less like Deadpool. If you're only doing friendly games where you can plan for it, then there's no real difference, and if you're doing tournaments you need to plan for it anyway.

    We again get to the issue with game balance where a clearly superior unit is made available to a specific faction, and the question you need to ask then is "is even it possible to make the rest of the faction sufficiently crap to make up for a few profiles being off the rails when you give the player a choice not to take those intentionally crap profiles?"
    I say, no it is not. Iron out the abilities that cost too much or too little.

    Or at least make sure all factions have something so clearly powerful that it is undeniable they are great. But... that doesn't seem like it's happening.
     
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  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Mmmm, I wasn't talking about preparing for it in the listbuilding stage, but rather in deployment.
     
  14. GHoooSTS

    GHoooSTS Well-Known Member

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    I actually rather like this idea as a camo spammer because it would expand on the electronic warfare element of the game. If a model wants to retain it's marker state, it only contributes Irregular orders unless you have somebody/something designed to enable stealthy communications. If it wants to break comm silence and contribute it's regular order, it loses it's marker state since the multilayered electronic surveillance everyone is datalinked to will know somebody/something is there.
     
  15. Berjiz

    Berjiz Well-Known Member

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    Markers only giving irregular orders is a very interesting idea. It fits with the way TO and AD works already too.
     
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  16. Wizardlizard

    Wizardlizard Well-Known Member

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    Tohaa are gone for years. They may make an appearance at some very much later date but if all of the on pause sectorials tohaa are the ones actually squatted. I am so confident of this I will now...after 20 plus years use the term tohaad for a game company killing an army. It is a great answer to when is the sakiel box coming out... rhymes with ever.
    Kill vanilla- it always struggled in a fluff way and even more so with so many na2.
    Finally story will drive the return if the other sectorials. I see 2 to 3 more going away in the pre n4 days and then a couple coming back in 1 to 2 years after n4 launches..not tohaa.
     
  17. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    I would like if they could redo ammo and damage type for more clarity.
    For example, N, DA and EXP could be N1, N2 and N3 (read: normal 1 hit, 2 hits, 3 hits). Or even A1, A2, A3 (Armor 1, Armor 2, Armor 3, to indicate you roll 1, 2 or 3 hits under the ARM stat).
    Nano and DT could be B1 and B2 (BTS 1 hit, 2 hits)
    Same for AP => AP1, AP/DA => AP2, AP/EXP => AP3.
    Breaker => BP1 (BTS Piercing 1 hit)
    Flash and Stun => F1 and F2 (Flash 1 hit and Flash 2 hits)

    You got the idea :) Same things should have same names.
     
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  18. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Hi in an effort to make the various N4 related threads manageable and readable we decided to make one generic thread for all the generic N4 discussions please continue your conversations here.

    Thanks
     
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