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Ariadna in N4

Discussion in 'Ariadna' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    To those that are not up to date N4 is coming and is scheduled for Summer of 2020.

    This tread is created to discuss Aridanda and its sectorials in the upcoming edition, Suggestions, ideas, wishlist's, opinions, things that work, things that do not work all are welcome if done in a polite manner.

    Now the most basic rule of the thread, be polite this is not a thread to be dissolved in arguing who has the correct ideas and who has not, all ideas are welcome and all comments and criticism is appreciated, as long as the tone is polite.

    For a more generic discussion of the upcoming N4 please use this thread

    Thanks.
     
  2. MATRAKA14

    MATRAKA14 Well-Known Member

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    Ariadna is my only faction since the transition from N1 to N2 (including MRRF, USARF, TAK)

    My point of view:

    Ariadna in general is in a good place, I think it's well balanced, and has some of the most iconic profiles of the game.
    Vanilla is also one of the most emblematic infinity factions and feels quite good rigth now.

    Anything not mentioned below is cool or at least fine. (Caledonia not included)

    TAK thoughts

    Overall TAK is in a very nice spot and it's quite enjoyable to play while feeling fair and balanced. My only drawbacks are the following ones:

    Tractor muls don't work, their artillery weapons have rifle range bands and the guided / speculative modes are not worth it. (same for MRRF, USARF, vanilla etc)

    The kuryer feels like a wasted opportunity, everybody was thinking how this profile would represent the technological superiority of the kazaks, I have heard ideas like (2 wound remote or more resilient overall, auto cannon option, synchronized profiles with somebody) but in the end it was just a useless traktormul with one more BS and mines, it was deeply disappointing.

    TAK nitpicks

    The kazak doctor has no use in his own sectorial.

    The veteran kazak doktor was cool before it was replaced by the medikit. The haris has no x-visor so usually players just use the haris frontovik.
    (Veteran kazaks are awesome in general)

    The ratnik is cool but the shotgun profile is too situational, maybe he could have double shotguns or double H rocket launcher (or even Voronins T2 shotgun).
    The trench hammer is awesome for antipodes but almost useless for the ratnick, having CC anti material for some missions is nice but overall it could use some love because it seems a bit convoluted for the little use it has. (You already have a short range pistol for the 0- 20 range band and the ratnik is not good in CC to use the hammer in other ways)

    Guard could be a more interesting skill for Voronin. The T2 shotgun was an amazing addition.

    The spetsnaz sniper is at a strange spot with the 1,5 swc cost, but at the same time a swc reduction could overshadow the scout sniper at 1 swc.

    As I have said Tak feels cool and well designed overall.


    USARF thoughts

    It's also a well designed sectorial and also enjoyable to play, but this one needs more attention.

    Grunts are awesome and the soul of the army

    Minutemen hit hard but are fragile and become overshadowed by marauders and grunts. They have shock immunity but no medic option, while marauders have dogged and medikit (strange mix).
    (maybe minutemen should have some sort of mixed link team or haris. Maybe minutemen could be more resilient and expensive to make USARF balanced in limited insertion)

    The unknown ranger doesn't synergize well with the sectorial.

    D-charges and engineers are strangely scarce with just ava1 dozer and ava1 Rosy.

    Limited insertion is a big problem, it's just not balanced for USARF, barely playable and not in a competitive way.

    USARF nitpicks

    The marauder haris feels a bit odd at 1swc (like the maverik molotock at swc2)

    The paratrooper ranger lieutenant exists for some reason.

    The devil dog now feels a bit too expensive.


    MRRF thoughts

    Chasseurs and paracomandos are a joy to use.

    The update for this army was well received but it fell short.

    The swc cost of some troops is just outdated. (regular zuaves at 0,5swc or moblot sapper at 2swc, loup garou grenade launcher 1,5swc)

    The moblot/metro link team would work way better with 2 moblots instead of 3.

    The anaconda feels almost useless in general, one of the worst if not the worst tag of the game.

    The Loup garou haris is cool but the sniper with x-visor is outdated due the change of range bands in N3.

    The sapper / fox hole skill is cool on paper (and in miniature) but in the end it's quite underwhelming.
    A troop in a foxhole should feel like a road block, a tough obstacle to beat before advancing in that direction. Maybe enhancing the ARO with full rate of fire, defensive or offensive mods, resilience, resistance to template weapons. Anything could help.

    Limited insertion is also a big problem for MRRF.

    Margot is a moblot, It could be awesome if she had some link team options with them or other MRRF troops (a non paratrooper profile without Duroc)

    Maybe in the future we could see other mirage teams, mirage-4, mirage-3 etc (exotic characters totally different from duroc and margot)

    It could be cool to reinforce the Rapid Response Force feeling for the sectorial, playing against MRRF should feel like they where in the field way earlier than you, already set up with a strong presence in the mid field, anchor points or strongholds in the form of foxholes. Maybe even a mid field haris.
    The idea of cheap infiltrating annoying guerrilla metros is cool and could be revised.
    Moblots and zuaves have mid field profiles but right now they don't work quite well.

    Loup garous are riot police and that concept could be expanded with riot stoppers (new o12 weapon) and maybe even a non linkeable riot horse profile.
    [​IMG]

    MRRF is supposed to have access to some high tech technology bought from other factions, if they are going to lack in firepower compared to other sectorials at least they could have access to some exotic skills/items (but Mrrf exclusive, not available in vanilla)
    Don't be afraid of sectorial exclusive profiles in general for tak usrf and mrrf.

    MRRF nitpicks

    In my opinion each mercenary added to the sectorial is a lost opportunity to add a cool new MRRF troop or character.
     
    #2 MATRAKA14, Aug 7, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2019
    Smiler, Harlock, barakiel and 4 others like this.
  3. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Well-Known Member

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    We know that come start of ITS11 and introduction of Wild Bill, there will be an update of USARF. We have to see if it indicates a direction in which N4 might be moving Ariadna as a whole.
     
  4. ice82

    ice82 New Member

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    MRRF lacks in almost all things and strategies come out with HSN3. They are outdated and need ti be revised and rebalanced.

    Except 112, MRRF don't have motorcycles. Loup-Garous (or a new unit profile Loup-Garous style) on riot horses can be a nice add. I think about the "non linkable option" and i feel in the Police corps rarely soneone patrol alone, almost everywere riding cops are a Duo. Then the better option i see is a fireteam:duo option for riding cops, like the dynamo for tak (loup-garous or a brand new unit).

    ....

    Any sectorial have some lack for the its rules / meta of last season (maybe except tak). A general rebalance and update can be nice.

    Inviato dal mio MI 5s Plus utilizzando Tapatalk
     
    Thjazi likes this.
  5. PsychoCrane

    PsychoCrane Active Member

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    As far as I can tell trench hammers aren't anti-material. At least they are missing the anti-material trait in army...
     
  6. MATRAKA14

    MATRAKA14 Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    Also DA usually counts as antimaterial.



    Expanding on the kuryer problems

    The new aleph rudras feel super unique and cool to field, you can do so much stuff with them. I'm obviously not suggesting to have a rudra in TAK but to make the kuryer unique and fun to field in a different way.

    I suggest a brain storm to overhaul this unit, we still have time because the models have not been made yet.

    Maybe it can be a light flamer platform with mine launcher and mine sweeper.

    Or a 2 STR with arm 4, a decent weapon and BS10 / 11 to make a mini tank.

    Able to synchronize with some troops or dozers.

    A cheap autocannon with low BS
    [​IMG]

    Even if the uragan and katyusha weapon become usable in N4, a +1 BS and some mines don't justify the kuryer.
     
    #6 MATRAKA14, Aug 7, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
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  7. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    Can we please have a TAG?

    More seriously, CHA also have a lack of motorbikes, which is a bit odd given the run up and stab you feel of the rest of the sectorial, I'd suggest something like the desperado or kum bikers rather than the dynamo.

    Mormaers could do with a little more thought, first thing is to bin dogged in favor of NWI or maybe even a second wound/lotech, and after that the fireteam options seem to be back to front, throwing a single grey into the Mormaer team means that thematically two clan leaders share a single bodyguard, but if we could put the Mormaer into a team of grays, then it would be a chief and his(or her, you can't tell under ARM5...) retinue.

    Specialists in the Greys and Mormaers would be nice too, but I'm not sure it's really a requirement.

    The last sticky thing for me is limited insertion.
    TAK don't have any massive problems with it, USARF can get by, but MRRF and CHA practically have 1 or 2 viable lists each which is a bit boring at best.
    Changeing how limited insertion works to allow for some kind of reserves or for a second combat group that costs SWC would be best, because that would shake things up for everyone, not just CHA, but additional units would be nice too, a cc oriented version of the blackjack/ratnik could be fun...
     
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  8. Wulverdron

    Wulverdron Well-Known Member

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    Ariadan doesn't need a TAG, they just need to put a dogface in Vet Kazak armour! :D

    If they can get Duroc to sit still in a transport plane, they can find one to sit still long enough to strap armour all over him (/her? named character Laika?), give them a Molotok in each hand, and let them run up the field.
     
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  9. Dogface

    Dogface New Member

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    Couldn't agree more. I feel haris alone would be enough to increase their usage, allowing a small, aggressive Minutemen team to be run alongside a full-size, defensive Grunt or Marauder link. Likewise, on the medic option vs. Marauders; it feels like a very confused set of skills.

    NWI or Mimetism would be fantastic to increase durability, but it'd bring them very close to Veteran Kazaks... maybe Hyperdynamics or something..? Automedkit? I realise these are not particularly Ariadna-y solutions.

    I love the models, I just can't find a decent way of fitting them into a list... I hope N4 will change that!
     
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  10. Yvain

    Yvain Well-Known Member

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    Here is my Wall of text on Team USA:

    USARF is a solid faction, but it has a few core issues that need dealing with in my opinion. The issues all work together to make the army kind of mono build. The internal balance is bad and most of the units are pointless to utilize in vanilla.

    As I see it, the issues are:

    Link Dependency: USARF has mid tier and low level profiles. There are very few models that stack any modifiers and as a result its usually take links or bust.

    No high Point/Strength Profiles: You really can’t play limited insertion as USARF without taking a bunch of characters.

    No Key Special Abilities: The best example of this is how Mimetism and ARM are represented in the faction. Mimetism is the most useful skill in the game only the UKR and an antipode has it. CB seems to have replaces it with high ARM. Arm is useful, but far inferior for its price. As a result, all the straight up fighters in the faction feel over costed and weaker. This forces us further down the link path to try to get a bonus to fight somehow.

    Key Model Dependencies: Only Roise, the Dozer, and the UKR can do the AC2 objective in L&S out of the box. Only one Engineer and Doctor. The UKR is the only source of COC. It nice having these characters and these options at all, but its annoying that some abilities are locked behind the character wall. Not a massive deal except it contributes to mono building.

    No Real Niche: There is nothing the USARF really stands out at any more. TAK does a lot of the USARF selling points better. The Strelok camo sensor is infinity times better than the USARF version. They have higher ARM models in the Ratnik and Vet Kazak. They have bike swarm. Their weapon options are better in that they have access to a lot of T2. They have a cheap camo units. Stronger more versatile link options (Some may go away in the update). Really all the USARF has that is special is Van Zant. It doesn’t have Tankhunters, Scouts, Antipode Packs, or Spetz.

    Bad Profiles:

    The UKR had the problem of being thematic, but with abilities that don’t sync well enough to justify his cost. Scavenger doesn’t work with the Heavy Pistol or T2 weapon. No shock immunity or Veteran Lv 2 makes him vastly inferior to a standard Vet Kazak.

    The Devil Dog is a terrible profile. They are overly expensive and lack offense. Their profile is all over they place trying to be everything, but failing at doing any of them particularly well.

    Minutemen are pretty lackluster. They don’t bring anything special to the army and are overshadowed by Marauders even without Bravery.

    All of this said, USARF is not a bad faction. It still has great options inside. However, without a unique identity (or similar units to make it at least a kind of the Mirror universe version of TAK), USARF will always be lackluster. The army needs some profile additions and changes to let to be more versatile if it wants to catch up to the latest sectorials.
     
    #10 Yvain, Aug 7, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
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  11. Shrooms

    Shrooms Member

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    As others have said, something for Minutemen and strength outside of Characters. Perhaps in the form of a revised Blackjack?
    I’d like to see the Blackjack as a TAG. Fatality and Full Auto to better reflect the massive weapons and ammo belt, inability to go prone and bad at dodging are more appropriate for the model, as is repair by Engineer. (And a pilot model would be great!) This would also distinguish it more from the Minuteman. If not a TAG, then at least the Fatality and Full Auto...
    (Incidentally- rename Fatality. Lethality maybe...)

    Don’t add bikes to CHA or MRRF, they don’t need to be everywhere. CHA and MRRF need their own thing and need differences from USARF and TAK.
     
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  12. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    This is an ITS fix, not an N4 fix, but someone in a different thread suggested amending all the scenarios that require a TAG to instead require either a TAG or a model with Heavyweight. it seemed like a nice compromise (noting that heavyweight is meant to be a disadvantageous rule, but still).
     
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  13. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    I feel like ratnik and blackjack should be labelled TAG. I just can't see them prone ... Maybe have them possession immune cause of low tech.

    Anaconda is not great but it's not that bad. You should play him more. Especially considering he is here to compensate for some weakness of MRRF with aro duty. I mean, ariadna tag can't be super star. It's a pano thing.

    As for general balance I don't really understand the point of the topic.
    Is N4 going to rebalance every profile ? The rules are going to change with N4. And hard to talk about balance in a game we don't know already.
     
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  14. MATRAKA14

    MATRAKA14 Well-Known Member

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    Cameronians are not like bikes but mutch better? 2 chain rifles, 2 types of grenades, no dodge penalties, super jump.
    I don't think USARF gets by in limited insertion. They are not designed for it just like MRRF.


    Why? Black jacks are awesome at 36 points. If it was a TAG it would be a lot worse.
     
    #14 MATRAKA14, Aug 8, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2019
  15. Disko King

    Disko King Well-Known Member

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    Rework of Traktor mulls - can't really see point in taking them. Sad we don't have some HMG total reaction as every other faction. Would be cool if we got some with like molotok, str2 or something in line with that.

    Unknown ranger is simply sad for how much it costs when you compare it to other faction and what they get for almost 50pts...and you get someone who dies to single SMG hit...
     
  16. Yvain

    Yvain Well-Known Member

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    You have missed the point of my post. I wasn't saying USARF is bad and has no merits. Internal balance being bad means there are profiles in the sectorial don't really make sense to take when compared to profiles in the same sectorial. Grunt and Marauder and their links, Van Zant, 2 AP Desperados are some of the most competitive profiles in the game. The FO Foxtrot is a very useful camo infiltrators. Those are the profiles that do most of the heavy lifting in the faction. This doesn't mean the rest of the profiles in the sectorial are worthless, but many are not competitive.

    Because of the way Infinity is designed a basic model will always be able to do something. However, just because a model can do X or have some success on the table doesn't mean it is not over priced or underpowered. In my opinion, what USARF needs some unit tweaks to make a lot of the options more competitive not against the rest of the game, but against each other.

    While the problem mostly exists within the sectorial, some of this extends beyond the sectorial to the rest of the faction and that is why you don't see a lot of these options in vanilla. Again, I think that is because some of these skills are priced differently. Compare the Miniuteman and Frontvik profile. The math will tell you that the frontovik is always a better gunfighter by a significant margin all things being as each as possible. The Marauder also loses, but he has access to Dogged which is always useful. That doesn't mean that the Minuteman is worthless, but it means it is highly likely he will not be taken in vanilla. Stacking a bunch of skills that don't sync or help a model just makes it overly expensive and by extension a bad option. This is the main problem with a devil dog. Sensor doesn't mix well with Extreme impet. BS 10 and no cover modes means the Heavy pistol and Shotgun doesn't win as many face to face rolls as they should. Burst 2 CC is nice, but he will still lose some F2F rolls against anyone with MA. All of these skills and weapons make up his cost X, but that is a lot of points to sink into one model that doesn't do that features very well.

    The niche problem is real and I think you again miss issue. This is different from the above problem. A Maverick or Devil Dog being better or worse than a dynamo or dog warrior here isn't the issue. Boiled down simply, the US can fill in X amount of roles. TAK can fill in X roles plus Y. This is completely different when you compare US to Caledonia. There are several flavor profiles that Caledonia has that US does not while several that US has that Caledonia does not. This is the way it should be as it make the two sectorials fun and interesting.

    None of these problems make the US unplayable. They just make it less exciting than it could be and they are things I would love to see changed about the faction to make it be varied and interesting.
     
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  17. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    I have actually suggested that myself in the past, along with the alternative that dog warriors (and their variants) could also fill the same role.
    Cameronians are a different type of run up and stab you than bikes, and the opportunity to do a Chibs from Sons of Anarchy + Karen Gillan in Jumanji two pack is right there...

    USARF getting by means that they don't absolutely suck at it, they can still break 300 in 10 troopers while bringing firepower, fireteam redundancy and a specialist or two in case they really need to push buttons, which is almost impossible for MRRF and CHA.
     
  18. asdepicas

    asdepicas Member

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    I have to disagree with you, i dont want other faction toys, i want our own ariadna toys to be playable. If every faction had every option the game would become dsmn boring and uninteresting. I dont need a TR hmg, i need a viable dog warrior. I dont want to compare unknown ranger with anything other factions have, i want to compare it with the rest of usariadna units and find that it adds something to the sectorial.
    Rumours say that usariadna could see a little rework/adjustment soon, that could tell us in wich direction wants to take CB Ariadna sectorials...
     
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  19. Disko King

    Disko King Well-Known Member

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    Well, what you want and what CB wants is kinda different ,seeing how they are handing things left and right...and how lines in how factions are different(as in past) are less and less obvious.
    For example SP had a thing with more than 1 link team before...and kinda unique link teams. Now everyone and their grandma has multiple link team options that can easily overshadow SP.
     
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  20. FreezeZ

    FreezeZ Member

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    I think that in overall balance and gameplay Ariadna is in good place. But improvements are always welcome.

    While I was thinking about potential changes I came to the conclusion that there are 2 big problems with future evolution of faction.
    1. General hatred, aversion or dislike of Ariadna in part of community. In many threads you can find posts where whole faction or its parts are used as bad examples of something. Even now I stumbled upon calls for nerfing Spetznas. While of course it's not like everyone hates the faction but it's not unpopular. Why it is the problem? It's hard to even propose changes when you will hear that faction is already strong, OP, annoying, don't need that etc.

    2. After TAK release it looks for me that Ariadna is in corner from design point of view. Their low-tech nature seems to limit faction way to much. I know that they can't get things like ODD, TO Camo and other shiny hi-tech stuff but why we don't get more exclusive things? Low-tech doesn't mean that the only thing we can get is camo dude with gun, and some more guns. Thay have spent years cut off from rest of humanity and only thing they invented was how to tame dogs? Rly?

    Right now Ariadna is a bit lost in its camo game. If you know that you will play against Ariadna, it's almost certain that you will have to deal with loads of camo cuz thats main way of playing this faction. The best units are camo units. There are some exceptions from that and aside from TAK sectorials plays a bit differently but vanilla Ariadna has big problems if you try to forsake camo game. It's odd because it should be the more flexible. Maybe with rework of FO, MULs and how guided works there will be option of playing with artillery supports. And that would work with their low-tech theme. I was thinking about something like mortars. Maybe MUL with HGL for indirect fire. Something more direct? Why Ratnik didn't get Autocannon profile. Not only it would propably made cool mini but also it makes sense to put heavy weapon on sturdier chassis. But I generaly feel kinda dissapointed with Ratnik, both rules and mini. TAK release was great time to shake up ariadnan playstyle. They are strong but nothing new.

    I would love to see new exclusive for Ariadna weapons and skills. Something that will break this camo meta. Rework of Traktors MULs. One unit as artillery support, other for more direct fight.

    I would love to see TAG something like that[​IMG]

    or that
    [​IMG]

    They both look cool and low-tech compared to other TAGs. But we probably won't see it any time soon or ever.
     
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