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Aragoto vs. Zondnautica

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by Quickit, Sep 19, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    By the same token, "become" is not used for the Frenzy rule, you simply activate as a impetuous trooper, so you are likely reading far too much into a word.
     
  2. Mcgreag

    Mcgreag Well-Known Member

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    Not reading anything special into a word, just reading a cancellation cause that is only listed as an effect of Frenzy, not of Impetuous.

    I do think it was intended that Impetuous would stop you from activating Impersonation and that this text under Frenzy was intended as a clarification that if you became Impetuous while under Impersonation it would break it, but somehow they forgot to include the base rule.
     
  3. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    Those rules weren't written with this case in mind. A lot of that language survives from 2nd edition, which did not have Cybermask, and early N3, which did not have KHDs (cybermask was only on HD+). When they wrote the impersonation rules, they simply were not considering the possibility of an already-impetuous unit, as that was not an anticipated unit design.

    What we really want here is a cancellation clause on the IMP states that says that it cancels any time a unit is impetuous. Not becomes or anything else that implies a state transition; simply being in that state.
     
    Abydog and meikyoushisui like this.
  4. LZ35SRX

    LZ35SRX Well-Known Member

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    The thing that baffles me the most is that you guys keep ignoring the wording on the Cybermask program itself. Let me elaborate:
    upload_2019-9-23_2-40-13.png
    As you can clearly see, this program does not grant the Impersonation skill. It directly puts the hacker into IMP-2 state. And according to the cancellation clause:
    upload_2019-9-23_2-41-39.png
    The trooper loses the ability to use the Impersonation Special Skill.

    IMO the case is pretty clear-cut. Cybermask grants user only the state, not the skill, AND we have a ruling from IJW that state and skill are two different things (thread about downgrading TO Camo to deploy in Camouflaged state, found here). Until we get a ruling from IJW or CB staff, this is the reading of the rules I would say is the correct one.
     
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  5. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and a LOT of us don't like the rules difference between State and Skill, as that is a change to how things have been played for over 10 years.

    @ijw , we really need a ruling on this, ASAP!
     
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  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    We've had a ruling from IJW, not that making rulings is actually his function (he's an editor and a play tester, not a rules arbiter - I believe there's only one person at CB calling the shots regarding rules and other CB staff only answers questions if they've got an answer from him, which is why CB staff is so quiet when it comes to answering rules questions), I'm rationalising around that ruling. I know it's not perfect logic, and you're arguing exactly like that insistent rules guru I alluded to, @LZ35SRX
     
  7. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    toadchild and theradrussian like this.
  8. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    We had one previously, it just conflicts with rulings he's given since.
     
  9. FrozenMittens

    FrozenMittens Member

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    I'm going to piggy back off of this thread a bit. I was wondering if anyone knew the relative cost of holo projector lvl 2 and would you all like Holo projector lvl 2 on aragoto? I know smoke is defacto benefit of most bikes and it's a bummer that aragoto doesn't get that piece of equipment. But I don't want a homogenized gaming experience across factions.

    The impetuous models still need a way to get up the table besides smoke and I thought holo projector lvl 2 would be amazing for that. just a swarm of bikes zipping up the table would be a blast. Some get taken out along the way but since a model can only target one model in ARO it would increase your chances of survival against a ARO heavy list. Plus it would be super cinematic. What are all of your thoughts on that? Is it worth adding to to the things we hope for in N4 post?
     
  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    It would be interesting, but it would make playing the 6-bike 'Bousouzoku' list (Asuka/Kuroshi, Yojimbo, and 4x Aragoto) very challenging with all those 55mm bases.
     
  11. FrozenMittens

    FrozenMittens Member

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    I would say don't give Yojimbo holo lvl2 and maybe give Kuroshi smoke instead of holo lvl2? Since you're right about moving 18 55mm bases up the table. But I also feel like the difficulty of maneuvering is the price you pay for spamming a game with max AVA of 4 aragoto. Like I said before, I just want to give them a way to get up the table without just giving all of them smoke. I'll throw it out there in the N4 forum and cross my fingers.
     
  12. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    Well the JSA do have access to ODD Equipment now (Ryuken, Shikami), so maybe the character Bikes (Kuroshi) could use ODD, while the normal bikes still have their Mimetism.
    Another thing that could help them out is upping their BS to 13, since then they can contest F2F more consistently while going up the table, but I don't know if that would be too strong, as in, Aragoto Spitfire is one of the cheapest Spitfires, if not the cheapest, (1 SWC) in the Army and deployed in the limit of your DZ ensures that with the first MOV, the Spitfire is always shooting on 15s, that's quite good.
    Hyperdynamics L1~2 could also be something unique (Yuriko Oda also has it).
     
  13. KestrelM1

    KestrelM1 Well-Known Member

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    Holoprojector L2 is a very strange suggestion. For starters it would mean the ability to hide as a Pangguling until actually activating. It also introduces the ability for enemies to Delay ARO, which is not really an upside. One thing I really like when using Aragoto is encouraging an enemy to Dodge so you can Move again and get an even better angle. Holoprojector L2 is already available on the S4 Lu Duan and is pretty solid for making decoy Aragoto already, if you want to go that route.

    Aragoto are gunfighters. They're not meant to need "help" to get up the table - they do that themselves by drowning enemies in mimetic shooting.
     
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  14. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    Except the only profile that really manages this is the Spitfire one... since Combi Rifles are not known to drown enemies in fire. Kuroshi also lost the Assault Pistol. And the rest of the weapons are Shotguns and the Flamethrower of Kuroshi. It's just not enough dice and enough high BS to threaten enemy pieces. I mean, if you're able to use the Shotguns at +6, then you've already did something important and possibly not directly with the Aragoto.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I like the idea of putting malfunctioning TO camo (aka ODD) on Kuroshi
    Er...
    Not quite.

    For starters, you'd have to use only Holo1 since deploying as Holo2 and putting 3+ Panggos that you can only bring 2 of is a dead give-away and you'd also have to play real dishonest with your Impetuous Order generation to hide it properly, not to mention that the courtesy list will simply give this piece of hidden information away to your opponent...
    On the flip side, I really hate delaying ARO, particularly against units that really want to move forward. Delay and they declare another Move? No ARO for you, sir, you get nothing!
     
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  16. FrozenMittens

    FrozenMittens Member

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    I don't understand. Isn't the opponent Delaying ARO going to lead to the same result as your opponent declaring a dodge? If you don't attack then they would lose their right to ARO, allowing your models to move again. I also don't understand why playing a shell game with a bunch of Panggulings or Rui Shi or even Kuroshi Riders is seemingly a bad thing? That kind of manipulation of deployment would greatly benefit the Aragoto, BS 12 isn't that high against models in cover when you are at your negative range band.

    I thought of just increasing their BS too but seemed like a PanO fix? Especially in a faction where everything is a bad shot. It would be weird if they were strapping some of the best shots to jet powered motorcycles. The Hyperdynamics is an interesting option because at lvl 2 they would be dodging on a 14. Which isn't terrible. But that and Kinematica would weirdly pair to make them more survivable in ARO which might change their design space? So does Holoprojector, but I feel it could add survivability to the models during their activation.

    I'm not saying this is what should be. I just thought it was a fun way to try and make them less bland. I'm really against every bike in every faction being similar. Which is why i like the Zoidnautica. And when i saw that profile it got me to thinking about how to make the Aragoto have something cool about it as well. Because everyone loves the models but except when i'm playing them, i rarely see them being used.
     
  17. FrozenMittens

    FrozenMittens Member

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    I took too long to type my reply........

    On the subject of 3+ Panngulings. I think that would be awesome!!!!!!!! Your opponent would not trust anything in your deployment which is a mind game idea that I love. Like the paranoia that comes from asking your opponent to turn around during deployment. Now their every move order is fear filled.
     
  18. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    I think they are different enough and unique enough... just that their load-outs don't really mesh well with their stats. I'd like to see some Light Rocket or Panzerfaust/Flammenspeer/Blitzen kinda of load-out to scare ARO pieces away.
    Or something that goes with their Mimetism: hence the suggested Hyperdynamics.
    Regarding the combo of Hyperdynamics and Kinematika, Taigha Creatures have both (for example) and they're fine AND they don't have an huge ass silhouette. It'd give more thoughtful decisions, since Aragoto almost never use Kinetamika, because shooting back is often times much better than a dodge on 8s.

    That said I often run Spitfire Aragoto x2 (because 4 dices on 12s or 15s are very good on active turn, also give some interesting Coordinated Orders); or the Hacker (travelling 10'' at a time to the nearest objective!)
     
  19. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    Regarding that... well, one of the states of cancellation for Holoprojectors is a troop becoming Impetuous.
    There's a standstill on opinions UT, about an Aragoto being able to use Cybermask Supportware, this would fall on the same conundrum.

    If "becoming" is to being interpreted the same as "is", then as soon as you end the Deployment Phase, the decoys disappear and you'd have a lonely bike marching forward.
    If the Aragotos can attempt this trickery, then the AVA2 of the Pangguling would give away that something (very obviously) was hidden there and you could be counter-deployed effectively.
     
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  20. Aemaru

    Aemaru Well-Known Member
    Warcor Aristeia

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    Well aragoto doesn’t have smokes that a point but they re cheaper and zondbot can ve very nice I presume but worth his 5points price.
    No one say it but aragoto are faster than the nomad one (mov 20-15 versus 20-10) and that can help in some situations. Bs 12 is ok for both. Arm 3 or 2 is not decisive but bts 3 fir hacking profil mean a lot when arogoto has only 0...
    I think they are quite balanced but I’d like to have some smokes on aragoto (still we have yojimbo avaible so is not so critical)