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Aragoto KHD and Cybermask

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Ashtaroth, Sep 22, 2019.

  1. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    #1 Ashtaroth, Sep 22, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
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  2. Spinnaker

    Spinnaker Vanguard Officer

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    I took a look at the discussion. RAW does seem to suggest that you're allowed to do it, but it's pretty clear that you're not intended to be able to - I'd personally be uncomfortable doing it unless my opponent ok'd it at the start of the game and I'd expect it to get fixed soonish.
     
  3. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    TBF, in the grand scheme of things the aragoto could use some love. BS12 with no visual mods (mimetism is to compensate never aving cover, don't @ me :P), no smoke, no linkability is not really a thing in this meta, and I can't for the life of me think of another impeutous/frenzy KHD that this would affect.
     
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  4. Spinnaker

    Spinnaker Vanguard Officer

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    I mean mimetism is slightly better than cover because you can sprint around to catch people out of cover while still benefitting from the mimetism, and it's still possible to place smoke for them using Yojimbo, but I understand why you'd feel that way. Also I just checked army, there are two other frenzy units with hacking devices: the Nahab and the Santiago Knight, nothing with full impetous though.
     
  5. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    You can use the program (because nothing forbid impetuous trooper to use cybermask) but if you pass your roll, you cannot enter the impersonnation state (because the impersonnation skill is forbiddent to impetuous trooper)
     
  6. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    Alright, but according to what people have mentioned, Cybermask doesn't mess with the Impersonation skill, just gives the target the state of IMP-2. I understand that an Impetuous trooper is forbidden to use the Impersonation skill, but I don't see any problem that such troop enters the Impersonation state through other means???

    I'm genuinely confused, specially because the rules on Impersonation state "become" and, in this sense, it's a very bad word (mainly alluding to the dichotomy of "become" and "is").

    I also stronlgy dislike playing with "intent", however clear it is... so, while I won't pull off this trick to avoid a distasteful rules discussion with my playgroup, I would like the rule to be written how it works and not how it's intended to work...
     
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  7. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you @Ashtaroth that playing with Intent with unclear RAW can be problematic

    Sadly in many case with a skill causing a state (suppresing fire, cybermask, camouflage...), the rule are poorly written with element that should be on the skill part written in the state part and vice versa
     
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  8. Wizardlizard

    Wizardlizard Well-Known Member

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    Most of the time when the forum runs into an intent vs raw discussion the core challenge is something that feels very unfair and and a stretch that cracks the game. Not all the time but well over half the time.
    This feels like a dirty trick that the rules imperfectly tried to address but translation and editing and gamers being gamers cause infinity a lot of heart burn. I follow the old adage that if a rule feels unfair to the opponent and there is doubt then the less oppressive solution is the right way.
    Having said that total immunity decision was one where I was positive it would not be the way it ended up actually being...
     
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  9. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    This is not true for two reasons.

    1) Per the rules "becoming impetuous" cancels the impersonation skill. Aragoto cannot become impetuous, they are impetuous.
    2) Becoming impetuous cancels the impersonation skill. Cybermask does not grant the Impersonation skill, only the IMP-2 state.

    I could accept an argument about RAI if only one of these two things was in the rules, but since they both are the only reasonable interpretation I see is that Aragoto can use Cybermask without issue.
     
  10. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Well, if you go after RAW....
    ...you can go even further:

    Cybermask grants the IMP-2 state, and this effect persisits until the user reveals himself.
    So this is a special kind of IMP-2 state that has its own cancelation clause which is much stricter than that of the usual IMP-2 state.
    Like... - discover won't work.
    Neither does 'becoming Impetuous'.

    And @meikyoushisui is right:
    Does the Aragoto become Impetuous due to the Frenzy Characteristic? - No.
    Does the Aragoto become Impetuous due to any other effect? - No. (Being Impetuous is one of the Aragoto's Characteristics.)
    Does the Aragoto enter the Retreat! state? - No. (Well, at least that's not our point here)
     
  11. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that since then IJW has ruled that State and Skill are separate things (in the 'TO model hiding as regular Camo Marker' discussion)

    Though it is tagged as an unresolved question: https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/unsolved-question-list.26932/page-13#post-295448
     
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  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Umm... he says Impersonation state states that you can't make use of the skill to enter the state, while in the case of camouflage he says that it doesn't state any such limitations.
     
  13. LZ35SRX

    LZ35SRX Well-Known Member

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    But that's not what IJW said though?

    He states that a) CH: TO Camouflage Special Skill and Camouflaged State are two different entities, and b) only Camouflaged State has NFB label, thus allowing a trooper wtih TO Camo benefit from both -3 to Discover for being a Camo marker, and -6 to opponent's BS for shooting at the discovered trooper.
    About Cybermask he says c) that keeping Cybermask Supportware is a prerequisite to keep the IMP-2 state on your trooper. And I can extrapolate from that, that d) entering IMP-2 through Cybermask cancels any other NFB Special Skill or Equipment due to Cybermask having NFB label itself.

    And, reading the first quote again, IJW states that "...staying in the state is not dependant on using the Skill." Thus we can extrapolate that staying in the IMP-2 state does not require Aragoto to be non-Impetuous, and she can enter this state through the Cybermask, which is specifially a Supportware Hacking Program, not Impersonation Special Skill (which is disabled, if the trooper becomes Impetuous).

    Also, if I'm reading the interaction correctly, due to the fact that it is a Hacking Program that enables a trooper to enter IMP-2 state, Cybermask allows a trooper to re-enter IMP-2 even after suffering a Fire Special Ammunition hit (and surviving of course), because, again, a hit with Fire Special Ammunition disables the Impersonation Special Skill only.
     
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  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You're pulling them out of context completely. Now, even if what you link is completely out of context in that it is not an answer sufficiently in full of what happens with Cybermask, you must agree that he made a clear difference between Cybermask and TO Camo, as in they are not functionally the same mechanically and can't be equated.

    Now, reading the link I provided up there, he gives a 100% agreement to the interpretation that being impetuous immediately triggers the cancellation clause.
     
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  15. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly.

    Yikes, that's a bit rude! Kinda useful for a Hac Tao KHD, though.
     
  16. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    This question popped up amongst my playgroup. I had to moderate it, so the game could proceed.
    @Arkhos94 could we have this added to the list of unsolved questions please?
    I'd really like an official ruling on this... it would also help with the Camouflage debacle.
     
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  17. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Why not, this question pop up every few month, it would be a good thing to have an official answer.

    Do we agree on the sum up of the question ?

    Original topic :https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/aragoto-killer-hacker-and-cybermask.24293/
    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/aragoto-khd-and-cybermask.35202/

    Question : an impetuous trooper with KHD (let's say an arogoto) want to use the cybermask programm to go Imp-2. Is he allowed to ?

    Answer :
    A) Yes, cybermask does not have any rules related to Impetuous. The impersonation-2 state is only cancelled when a trooper become impetuous (and the Arogoto already is impetuous).
    B) No, the impersonation state would be cancelled immediately even if the Aragoto tried to run cybermask as impetuous is one of the cancellation conditions.
     
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  18. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    Thank you so much for your time.

    I appreciate it. :)