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testing the waters

Discussion in 'Dahshat Company' started by borings, Mar 29, 2019.

  1. kesharq

    kesharq Lucky Dice-Roller

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    Let's take a look at Army:

    Miranda Ashcroft: Skill Fireteam:Duo
    Miranda Ashcroft: Skill Special Fireteam: Wildcard Character: Wildcards can be part of any fireteam in this Sectorial Army
    Rafiq REMOTE FTO (Fireteam: duo) Red Fury - Skill: Fireteam: Duo
    Rafiq REMOTE: Special Fireteam: Duo. 1 Rafiq Remote FTO + 1 Maghariba Guard

    My way of doing this Fireteam: Duo is as follows:
    I take a Maghariba Guard and a Rafiq FTO. Then I exchange the Maghariba Guard for Miranda as she is a wildcard and may join any Fireteam in this Sectorial Army. The Fireteam:Duo is still consistent, because Rafiq FTO still has the skill Fireteam: Duo that's needed to create a Fireteam: Duo (for creating a Fireteam: Duo you need at least one profile with the Skill Fireteam: Duo in the team).

    I would say it is legit:+1:


    EDIT: after a long discussion in my local gaming group and rereading the fireteam rules I have to apologise to @Space Ranger as he is right.
    The Rafiq FTS is NOT able to do a duo fireteam with any Wildcard Profile. Mirandas and Rafiqs Profil have the ability to do a fireteam: duo. But only as a special fireteam with the specific profile mentioned (Maggie for the Rafiq, a Bounty Hunter for Miranda).
     
    #21 kesharq, Apr 2, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
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  2. KestrelM1

    KestrelM1 Well-Known Member

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    Strike the word "join" from your mind. It was a poor translation and does not reflect the way the rule works. If you look at the current wiki you'll see it's been revised to "can be part of," as in "Special Fireteam. Wildcard trooper: the Bounty Hunters can be part of any Fireteam of this Sectorial Army" (my emphasis).

    Wildcard troopers can replace any "required" trooper in a fireteam. The rule must work that way, in fact, or it wouldn't function at all. The only requirement is that a Fireteam: Duo must include a model with the Duo skill and a Haris must include a model with Haris. To wit, this is a "1 Rafiq Remote FTO + 1 Maghariba Guard" fireteam:

    MIRANDA ASHCROFT Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 23)
    SFORZA FTO (Holoprojector L1) Viral Rifle + Adhesive Launcher, Nanopulser / Heavy Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 28)

    Miranda replaces the Maghariba and Sforza replaces the Rafiq. Or vice versa, doesn't matter. All that matters is that Miranda has the Duo skill and all models are legal members of this fireteam. It's the same reason you can make a "Zuyong Core" with a Rui Shi and four ABHs.
     
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  3. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    So you are saying this is a legal Odalisque fireteam Haris though there's not a single Odalisque with the Haris skill? I always thought that there must be that troops with the skill.

    MIRANDA ASHCROFT Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 24)
    SFORZA FTO (Holoprojector L1) Viral Rifle + Adhesive Launcher, Nanopulser / Heavy Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 28)
    BOUNTY HUNTER Submachine Gun, Akrylat-Kanone / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)

    Edit: Never mind. I see in your example, the Rafiq has the Duo skill and the Maghariba has the Duo skill. So there must still be a at least one troop with the Haris or Duo skill.

    The above is not legal but below is.
    MIRANDA ASHCROFT Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 24)
    SFORZA FTO (Holoprojector L1) Viral Rifle + Adhesive Launcher, Nanopulser / Heavy Pistol, Electric Pulse. (0 | 28)
    ODALISQUE (Fireteam: Haris) Rifle + Light Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
     
  4. Joametz

    Joametz Chinese Empire in Space enthusiast

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    Partly because it can be linked, but also as a singleton. MLs are better ARO pieces than HRLs because of the range mainly, but I also would argue EXP ammo is more impactful than Fire on average. The silhouette is also smaller, which can be a bonus.

    It does have lower ARM and PH, but it also costs like 10 points less. Maybe give it a try, it's pretty good (although neither the Al Fasid nor the Zuyong have Courage).
     
  5. Pyra

    Pyra Warmongering Potatoe

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    Tomorrow I will be playing with my locals and we gonna test new sectorials. The following list is the first draft? idea? I come up with Dashat.
    Usually, I am playing SpamOceania :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: (really high order count lists of all sectorials), so immediately this army got my attention. This list is mostly focused on more killy missions but still has a decent array of specialists to complete most of the ITS missions.

    Dahshat Company
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1
    ZÚYǑNG Lieutenant (AutomediKit) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1 | 39)
    ZÚYǑNG Missile Launcher, Light Shotgun / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (2 | 36)
    RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 20)
    BOUNTY HUNTER Submachine Gun, Akrylat-Kanone / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    BOUNTY HUNTER Submachine Gun, Akrylat-Kanone / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    VALERYA GROMOZ Hacker (Hacking Device UPGRADE: Expel) Combi Rifle + Pitcher / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21)
    112 Light Shotgun / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 12)
    NASMAT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    KAMEEL (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    KAMEEL (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    LIBERTO (CH: Mimetism, Minelayer) Light Shotgun, Chain-colt, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 11)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]7 [​IMG]3 [​IMG]2
    McMURROUGH 2 Chain Rifles, Grenades, Smoke Grenades / Templar CCW (AP + DA). (0 | 32)
    RAFIQ REMOTE Rifle + Light Shotgun, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    FANOUS REMOTE Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    DOZER (Traktor Mul Control Device) Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    NASMAT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    TRAKTOR MUL (Minesweeper) Electric Pulse. (0 | 5)
    TRAKTOR MUL (Minesweeper) Electric Pulse. (0 | 5)
    KUM Chain Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 10)
    LIBERTO (CH: Mimetism) Submachine Gun, Chain-colt, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    I believe that Dashat might be the strongest NA2 sectorial due to massive order count, really decent link options and a great mix of irregular troops. The most challenging issue will be hiding four baggage drones but in scenarios with zones domination, it will be useful to have them in the end.

    Core link is really great. It has a 2W ARO pice and huge offensive active turn potential. Rui Shi with assisted fire and smoke pretty much outshoot everything in the game. HMG lieutenant serves as a backup gunfighter - could not find a better lieutenant option. I will try to push one flank with both core link and McMorough so they can support each other with smoke + MSV2 combo and weapon/solution to pretty much everything.

    Having initiative will be nice (as always) but not as crucial since linked Missile Launcher will sink some orders, same as disposable Libertos + mine and flash pulse drones on limited ARO lanes. Even ABHs if they roll something useful can be used as one time ARO pieces with their glue guns.

    As always any C&C are always welcome :kissing_heart:
     
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  6. AssaultUnicorn

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    As a guy who hasn't yet played a single game, I'd say those large baggage remotes are the main weakness of this list. If you run into DBS or other similar guys with spec fire LGLs that win the initiative, they can cripple your order pool bad. Flash pulse drones that have BS 11 AROs at best, I would probably keep them as order monkeys instead of ARO pieces. I'd also take Ghulam Doctor Plus over 112 since he's only 4 points more expensive while having superior native WIP and +3 to the doctor rolls. Given that losing even a single ABH in your link team will drop your BS bonus down, I'd say it's essential to have a good medic that could patch up the fallen team member.

    I think this list can make or break your game depending on whether you win the initiative roll. To me, it seems like a bit of a gamble.
     
  7. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I agree, that's a lot of big bases. I think one Ghulam Doc, Bounty Hunter, Bashi, or Brawler is ultimately going to be better than 2 Fanous or 8pt. Kameels.
     
  8. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the restrictions for this team aren't as tight: up to 1 Rui Shi may join a fireteam of Zuyongs. So, that's Core, Haris and Duo, with any wildcards thrown in...

    [Edit] Actually, I see which fireteam you were talking about! No worries!
     
  9. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Ya I was wrong. Miranda can totally replace the Maggy in the Duo. I'm actually looking forward to trying it out.
     
  10. kesharq

    kesharq Lucky Dice-Roller

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    This is wrong. Special fireteams have to have the exact profiles/troops mentioned in their description. Miranda is not able to Duo with Sforza. Just a Bounty Hunter, Brawler or an Odalisque.

    To form a fireteam, you have to meet the basic requirements listed here:
    http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/List_of_Fireteams

    For example, to form a zuyong core fireteam you need at least 2 Zuyong profiles, then you are able to add other Zuyongs, Wildcards and perhaps a RuiShi.
    So sadly no Zuyong Fireteam w/o Zuyongs
     
    #30 kesharq, Apr 10, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  11. kesharq

    kesharq Lucky Dice-Roller

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    No, you were right and I was wrong
     
  12. KestrelM1

    KestrelM1 Well-Known Member

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  13. kesharq

    kesharq Lucky Dice-Roller

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    @KestrelM1


    The problem is: How do you form a fireteam? Let me quote some rules regarding core fireteams and a Zuyong core fireteam w/o a Zuyong:

    -> A Fireteam can only be composed of those troopers where it is indicated that they are able to compose Fireteams.(http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Common_Requirements)

    -> During the Deployment Phase, placing a Team Leader Marker (F: TEAM LEADER), or equivalent, next to one of the troopers that meet the Requirements of this rule. (http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Creation_of_a_Fireteam)

    -> In addition to the Fireteam Common Requirements, a Fireteam: Core has to fulfill the following specific Requirements:
    - Only those units specified on their Sectorial Army List can compose a Fireteam: Core.
    - To compose a Fireteam: Core, the minimum trooper number Requirement is two, and the maximum is five.
    (http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Fireteam:_Core)

    -> List of legal Fireteams in Dahshat (http://infinitythewiki.com/en/List_of_Fireteams):
    AUTHORIZED BOUNTY HUNTERS
    - Special Special Fireteam. Wildcard trooper: the Bounty Hunters can be part of any Fireteam of this Sectorial Army.
    - Special Fireteam: Duo. Miranda Ashcroft + 1 Bounty Hunter.

    ZÚYǑNG Invincibles, Terra-Cotta Soldiers
    - Core, Haris

    Yáoxiè RUI SHI
    - Special Special Fireteam. Up to 1 Rui Shi can join a Zúyŏng Invencibles Fireteam.


    Let's start with deployment:
    1. You place your 4 ABH and another Wildcard in coherency on the table
    2. You place the team leader (core) marker next to the ABH.
    BUT: ABH nor Sforza nor Valerya Gromoz nor Miranda do not have the Rule Fireteam: Core or are listed as Fireteam: core in the wiki List of Fireteams. And to form a fireteam:core you need at least 2 troops with the ability to form a fireteam: core - 2 Zuyongs here.
    Wildcard gives the ABH the ability to be part of a fireteam but you have to fullfill the requirements to form a Zuyong Fireteam:core first. And that is 2 Zuyong at least in the Fireteam.


    Regarding those rules I would say that the Zuyong Fireteam:core might be written as:
    2+ Zuyong
    0-1 RuiShi
    0-3 Wildcards

    This also has impact on reforming the Fireteam later in the game. If one Zuyong is killed, you can not substitue it with a Wildcard to get back to full strength but need another Zuyong.

    Please comment :)
     
  14. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Clear as mud! But better than they have written it! :) So even though Miranda has the Duo skill, she can not replace Maggy in the Duo with the Rafiq?
     
  15. kesharq

    kesharq Lucky Dice-Roller

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    Yes, I read it (now) that way. Miranda and the Rafiq have both just Special Fireteam: Duo

    "If a unit has no standard Types of Fireteam listed, they can only create Fireteams that follow the notes for their Special Fireteams. For example when creating a Fireteam: Core of Magister Knights, the player must include 1-2 Knights Hospitaller or 1-2 Knights of Santiago." (http://infinitythewiki.com/en/List_of_Fireteams)
     
  16. KestrelM1

    KestrelM1 Well-Known Member

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    Ok, let me see if I can identify which clause is causing you to interpret the rule the way you are. I suspect it is this one:

    Let's use the example of the Zuyong Core Fireteam. Which troops can compose, or to put it another way, can be part of that fireteam in Dahshat Company? Zuyong can, because:

    -> A Fireteam must be composed of troopers belonging to the same unit, or of those that the Sectorial Army List specifies are able to do so.

    And "-> ZÚYǑNG Invincibles, Terra-Cotta Soldiers : Core, Haris" is listed in the sectorial army chart. Note the second clause above is "those that the Sectorial Army List specifies are able to do so." That clause allows the following:

    A single Rui Shi can be part of that fireteam, since

    -> Special Fireteam. Up to 1 Rui Shi can join a Zúyŏng Invincibles Fireteam.

    Any number of Authorized Bounty Hunters, Miranda, Sforza, and/or Valerya can be part of that fireteam, since:

    -> Special Fireteam. Wildcard trooper: the Bounty Hunters can be part of any Fireteam of this Sectorial Army.
    -> Special Fireteam. Wildcard character: Sforza FTO can be part of any Fireteam of this Sectorial Army.
    -> Special Fireteam. Wildcard character: Miranda Ashcroft can be part of any Fireteam of this Sectorial Army.
    -> Special Fireteam. Wildcard character: Valerya Gromoz can be part of any Fireteam of this Sectorial Army.

    Therefore the legal members of a Zuyong Core Fireteam are Zuyong, Rui Shi (maximum 1), Bounty Hunters, Sforza, Miranda, and Valerya.

    So, as colbrook put it in the thread I linked, you can follow this procedure to form a Zuyong Core Fireteam in Dahshat:

    1. Declare you are forming a Zuyong Core Fireteam.
    2. Nominate a Fireteam Leader. In this case let's pick Miranda Ashcroft, since she seems trustworthy. She's a legal member of a Zuyong Core, so we can place the Team Leader marker next to her.
    3. Nominate troops to join her. In this example we choose 3 Authorized Bounty Hunters and one Rui Shi to be part of the Zuyong Core. Since all those are legal members of a Zuyong Core, they can join the fireteam as long as they're within Coherency of Miranda.

    And that's pretty much it. You have a Core consisting of 5 legal members. Note that unlike Haris or Duo, there is no requirement that any member of a Core team have any kind of special skill. In fact Fireteam: Core isn't even a skill, it's simply a permission granted to you by virtue of choosing Dahshat Company as your army.

    To address my other example, the Miranda + Sforza "special duo," it's the same idea. Dahshat Company gives us permission to form a "Special Fireteam: Duo. 1 Rafiq Remote FTO + 1 Maghariba Guard." Who can be part of this fireteam? The Maghariba and Rafiq FTO can, since they're explicitly listed as potential members. In addition, any number of Authorized Bounty Hunters, Miranda, Sforza, and/or Valerya can be part of that fireteam, just like the Zuyong example above. So the formation of the Duo can go like this:

    1. Declare you are forming a Special Duo: 1 Rafiq Remote FTO + 1 Maghariba Guard.
    2. Nominate a Duo leader. Let's pick Miranda Ashcroft again, since we like her so much. She's a legal member of a Special Duo: Rafiq + Maghariba, so we can place the Duo Leader marker next to her.
    3. Nominate troops to join her. In this case we'll pick Father Lucien Sforza, since he can be part of any fireteam.
    4. Additional step: this fireteam must include at least one model with Duo, as that's a requirement. Miranda has the Fireteam: Duo skill, so we fulfill that requirement and the fireteam is legal.

    It's unfortunately quite a long-winded explanation for how things work. I don't blame you for misunderstanding how the rule works, it's not explicitly clear exactly what Wildcard allows you to do, and the initial poor translation of the rule didn't help much either. I hope this clears things up for you!
     
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  17. kesharq

    kesharq Lucky Dice-Roller

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    Again: If you have no profile with fireteam:core in the link, then you are not able to form the fireteam at all. Wildcards "can be part", not "count as", no "replace" etc. - to be part you have to have a legal fireteam to join.

    Reread the first post in the thread you linked some posts before. Not Colbrooks post, but IJW's first post
    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/forming-fireteams-a-summary.3553/



    Special: duo - Rafiq+Maggie
    "If a unit has no standard Types of Fireteam listed, they can only create Fireteams that follow the notes for their Special Fireteams." ( http://infinitythewiki.com/en/List_of_Fireteams ).

    Both Miranda and Rafiq (and Maggie also) have just "special fireteam: duo" - Miranda + ABH / Rafiq + Maggie. As the special Fireteam HAVE to be exactly like that, how will you include Miranda in a Rafiq+Maggie-Special-Duo?

    :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: I do not blame you for going RAI, but RAW is telling me something different. And I prefer RAW, otherwise I would be making up my own rules...
     
    #37 kesharq, Apr 10, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  18. KestrelM1

    KestrelM1 Well-Known Member

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    Fireteam: Core is not a skill. Its inclusion in ARMY V is as reminder text only, which is unfortunate because it is incredibly misleading.

    Since it can't be stated enough, Fireteam: Core is not a skill.

    IJW's post you linked was just updated to include:

    Wildcard Troopers
    • These troopers can be included in any Fireteam in their Sectorial, 'replacing' any trooper.
    • There is no limit to the number of Wildcard troopers that can be in a Fireteam, unless a limit is listed in the Sectorial chart.
      • Remember that a Fireteam: Haris will still require at least one trooper with the Fireteam: Haris Special Skill.
      • Remember that a Fireteam: Duo will still require at least one trooper with the Fireteam: Duo Special Skill.
      • Remember that Fireteams: Haris and Duo also need to be listed in the Sectorial chart.
    I hope between IJW's post and my post you are able to understand the fireteam formation rules. I know they're convoluted and full of misleading information, but I assure you that Wildcard troopers are able to replace any "required" trooper in a fireteam, no matter how "special" it may be.
     
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  19. kesharq

    kesharq Lucky Dice-Roller

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    @KestrelM1

    Ok, then show me the rule where it is said that Wildcards are able to replace required troopers. Rules - no RAI...
     
  20. Ariwch

    Ariwch The denizen of the StateEmpire salt mine

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    Here, I belive?
     
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