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Tanko Core Team

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by Ashtaroth, Sep 9, 2019.

  1. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    Hi all, long time player, first time poster!
    JSA filthy one trick :D

    Ok, introductions done.

    I made a hiatus from the game (for about 1 year and a half) and came back to play it, well, this month. Found a ton of interesting stuff with JSA, as you can imagine.

    Right now, I'm just building lists and trying the new minis out. I have (had, I guess), a full team of Haramakis, which I can now proxy for 3 Tankos. Thing is, looking at their profiles seem like a sidegrade from the Haramaki.

    Are they really worth investing, in a list, to have a full link with double Domaru? Seems that with the Domaru Spitfire, there might be some reason to take them.

    But, what do you guys think?
     
  2. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    Paging @Section9 for his 7 Samurai list...
     
  3. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    It's nice HI-Core-Link, and brings some long range weapons (ML) that JSA lacks otherwise.
    But it's half your points, so good for LI, but maybe not too good for larger lists.
    And with Total Immunity the Karakuris are really strong at the moment,
    but bringing both might leave no points for support,
    so you have to decide...
     
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  4. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    I love Tanko/Domaru links. They have ranged weapons to make approaching easier, and then are very dangerous once you get in close. I tend to break up the team and send them after different targets after they get in. The ML and Spitfire rarely survive but get work done before they die. The link is also great defensively, but definitely save an order to run Fairy Dust in your turn.

    They are not great for heavily objective-based missions, but that's why you have an alternate list. Karakuri Haris is great for objective missions.

    Also, welcome back to the game! It has only gotten better in the last couple of years.
     
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  5. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    Exactly! For ITS missions, which I'll be doing in a short while with my play group it seems (to me), that Karakuri just add a ton more value, than any other HI unit for JSA right now. Also being FOs for objectives is a big plus. And being Haris makes you able to do a 5-member link team with Keisotsu and Marksman Rifle Kempeitei, which is beastly!!! So, I see little incentive to field the Tanko as of right now. =/

    Thank you so much!!! Yeah, it's been a ton of fun coming back, theory crafting, building lists with the new orders, going shopping and I actually played a couple of games last weekend. All kinds of rusty, but still managed to point some bullets at the enemy side of the field.
     
  6. KestrelM1

    KestrelM1 Well-Known Member

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    Heavy Infantry
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10 [​IMG]3
    KARAKURI (Fireteam: Haris) Combi Rifle, Chain Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 39)
    KARAKURI Mk12, Chain Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 43)
    KARAKURI Mk12, Chain Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 43)
    TANKŌ Missile Launcher / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)
    TANKŌ Missile Launcher / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)
    TANKŌ Blitzen, Submachine Gun / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    DOMARU Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 26)
    OYAMA Lieutenant Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Breaker Pistol, AP CCW, EXP CCW. (0 | 28)
    TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    TOKUSETSU EISEI Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    3.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Seems like you don't have to decide ;)

    Tanko are still one of the game's best ARO fireteams, primarily because they're so cheap you can include a heck of a lot of other stuff. I wish you didn't have to bring along so many worthless Domaru in order to link them, but a Tanko ML in the right spot can easily take over a game.
     
  7. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    It's worth bearing in mind that not all ITS scenarios require specialists, some even penalise you for taking them!
     
  8. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    @KestrelM1
    Sure it is possible,
    but the lieutenant is obvious and without a backup,
    and the DoTanko without the Spitfire has a hard time to move up.
    Also, so much HI without a hacker (fairy dust) is quite a risk.
    I also like the Domaru Haris for the Karakuris,
    because it is much cheaper,
    scares off CC Specialists that the Karakuris cannot deal with,
    and those EM nades can be fun as well!

    Japanese Secessionist Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10 [​IMG]3
    KARAKURI Mk12, Chain Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 43)
    KARAKURI Heavy Shotgun, Chain Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 38)
    DOMARU (Fireteam: Haris) Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (0.5 | 27)
    TANKŌ Flammenspeer, Contender / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    TANKŌ Blitzen, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    TANKŌ Missile Launcher / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)
    DOMARU Spitfire / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (2 | 39)
    OYAMA Lieutenant Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Breaker Pistol, AP CCW, EXP CCW. (0 | 28)
    KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
    YURIKO ODA Combi Rifle + E/Mitter, D-Charges, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 23)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    4 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
    #8 daszul, Sep 9, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
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  9. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    Japanese Secessionist Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10 [​IMG]3
    KARAKURI Mk12, Chain Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 43)
    KARAKURI Heavy Shotgun, Chain Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 38)
    DOMARU (Fireteam: Haris) Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (0.5 | 27)
    TANKŌ Flammenspeer, Contender / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    TANKŌ Blitzen, Light Shotgun / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    TANKŌ Missile Launcher / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)
    DOMARU Spitfire / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (2 | 39)
    OYAMA Lieutenant Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Breaker Pistol, AP CCW, EXP CCW. (0 | 28)
    KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
    YURIKO ODA Combi Rifle + E/Mitter, D-Charges, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, CCW. (0 | 23)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    4 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    [/QUOTE]

    This is a spicy list. I think I'd swap Yuriko+Yaozao for Keisotsu Hacking Device and a 8pt Repeater (I think I don't go over 300 nor SWC). I kinda fancy to try the list like that.
     
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  10. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    That is indeed a good incentive to bring a 10 Wound Arm 3 link team.

    P.S.: Sorry for the MULTI Reply.
     
  11. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    You rang?

    Seven Samurai
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]4
    OYAMA Lieutenant Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Breaker Pistol, AP CCW, EXP CCW. (0 | 28)
    DOMARU Spitfire / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (2 | 39)
    TANKŌ Missile Launcher / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)
    TANKŌ Flammenspeer, Contender / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    TANKŌ Blitzen, Submachine Gun / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 23)
    O-YOROI AP HMG + Heavy Flamethrower, CrazyKoalas / EXP CCW. (2 | 86)
    [​IMG] O-YOROI PILOT Contender / Pistol, CCW. ()
    YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
    TOKUSETSU EISEI Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Fortunately it still works after the most recent Army updates.

    Link team goes up one side, TAG is a distraction on the other, Hacker casts Fairy Dust to help the link team, Doc and Engineer hide like little girls. I usually give the helperbot to the Engineer.
     
  12. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    @Section9 with the TAware this actually reaches 12 orders (9 regular, 2 irregular, 1 impetuous), which is surprisingly quite a lot. I'll give this one a go as well.

    Thanks!!!
     
  13. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    It's pretty good for beatsticking. Most people see the O-Yoroi as the biggest threat, so it draws significantly more fire than the DoTanko team. Use Yojimbo to give the O-Yoroi smoke cover.

    It's not so good for button pushing missions.

    But it is fun and thematic.
     
  14. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    There's been a lot of affirmative answers, and great suggestions for how to field the HI link, but I'm going to go ahead now and say no, there's no reason to take the link. The strongest JSA lists are mostly unhackable -- Ryukens, Yojimbo, Keisotsu Core, Rui Shi, and an Oniwaban are pretty much how I start list-building.

    Specific to this set of units, here's my grievances.

    1) People forget how fireteams have drawbacks in addition to benefits. In this case, you tied up 140 points of units that want to be in the midfield in your DZ to keep them protected. There's been some discussion about this in this thread. JSA's defensive hacking capabilities are not many, mostly limited to Fairy Dust and Prayer, or the lone ninja KHD. The link does not carry any native hacking protection.

    2) If you compare every link in the game, JSA is comparatively undergunned as one of the only factions in the game that can't get higher than BS16 on a B4 for under 100 points (because it can't get BS16 on a B4 weapon at all -- the only other sectorial that can't hit BS16 across the board is Steel Phalanx, a sectorial without core links). It's not economical in JSA at the listbuilding stage to play something that costs 140 points and doesn't do really do much to help balance out the shooting weakness of JSA.

    3) The loadouts. The fact the Domaru is a Spitfire and not an HMG means that she will have to move up the table to get into a good range to shoot. Her shooting out of the DZ on turn one means your opponent has deployed really poorly. The Tanko Missile on the other hand does exactly the opposite -- forces you to deploy as far away as you can to take advantage of the 32-40 inch range band you have over HMGs. The Tanko missile can also just be smoked around right now, significantly reducing its effectiveness in ARO. (This weakness applies to most linked AROs of course, but recent updates have proliferated a lot of MSV2 ARO options -- Spiral Taagma, Haido in IA, the Kamau, etc. that solve problems that this link doesn't.)

    4) Reforming the link. Bodies for the link are really expensive in any list. You're looking at a minimum 169 point investment on the Spitfire/Missile flavor of the link if you want a 6th body when your missile inevitably dies to literally any linked mimetism shooter (or when its easier to leave the missile where it is instead of climbing it down from a roof when you start moving).

    5) Order economy. JSA pieces are all order hungry due to their loadouts requiring closing in -- SMGs, CC, Boarding Shotguns, and Spitfires are all things you want to be close to use. For me, this means JSA needs to have lots of orders to fuel them. A single Domaru is not hard to fuel, but when considering all the support elements you need in a Domaru core list, it's hard to see how you can hit two combat groups and have the right tools (KHD, HD, Rui Shi for camo hunting, Yojimbo, and a 6th body and you have 40 points left).

    Domaru are best when they are not relying on their BS skill -- it's better to rely on their CC abilities and templates, which are easier to take advantage of in a Haris or solo. Tanko want to stay linked for the sweet cover bonuses. If there was a haris of Domaru and Tanko, that is what I would be most inclined to play.
     
  15. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    A small reminder: although is a weird choice (and usually a suboptimal one), you can build a Core DoTanko Fireteam with just 2 Domaru + 1 Tanko. It's cheaper, easier to move, and while less powerfull it leaves more free points to invest in a Karakuri or Daiyokai Haris plus as much support as needed.
     
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  16. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    Fantastic answer, thanks for being so thorough. I'm not gonna lie, the list I tried this past weekend was formed on a Keisotsu five man link (with Kempeitai amidst it), Yojimbo, Oniwaban (SMG one to try it out) and the TAG (which is very suboptimal, but I wanted to test the TAware). My lists got close to 16 orders (counting Lieutenant, TAware and Impetuous), something like Group 1 with 8 orders (TAG + Keisotsu) and Group 2 with 6 orders (utility group). So, I can see that a DoTanko list will make Ninjas worse, Ryuken (FD one) worse and getting out of the DZ will not be without 1 Wound or so. I would trust that a KHD Ninja would be good to protect them (offense best defense, very JSA), but I can be convinced that's not the case.

    I can see an HMG Domaru being a very obnoxious thing to fight against... but I think you nailed with the Missile Launcher/Spitfire dichotomy. JSA forces are very mid range, their long range units are iffy and expensive to enlist (looking mostly at you, BS11 Sniper Ninja...), and if you want to shoot up close that takes Smoke. And because Smoke is very order hungry, that is a nombo with DoTanko since they consume a lot of army points. And if the Meta is becoming more MSV2 driven even...

    I'll try them out, Section9's list seemed the fun I wanted for a good opening game on the next weekend and Kestrel's and daszul's lists also intrigued me and might get me on to something, but I think, for a competitive mindset, a list that wants an HI fireteam is better off with Karakuris (as of now), so I tend to agree with you.


    On a completely unrelated topic, O-Yoroi Lieutenant is very good! It has Koalas to protect against hackers, it has an HMG (much needed long range firing platform) and brings "three" orders to the list. There's something very JSA and satisfying in going: "so, first order, is the lieutenant order, this big guy shoots four DMG16 AP bullets at your little s*** over there". And for 21(22) points you have a decent CoC (maybe tucked into a Fireteam). Not a bad deal.
     
  17. Goonhammer

    Goonhammer Well-Known Member

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    I have made use of this quite often, and it works fairly well. The Domaru + Tanko run up one side of the board to clear the way and act as a distraction, and a Domaru + Karakuri Haris can move around to where it needs to go to get work done. Leaves just under 100 points available in the list to put an all important engineer and hacker, plus some other fun/useful things you want to play with.

    Something like this:


    Japanese Secessionist Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]1
    DOMARU (Fireteam: Haris) Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (0.5 | 27)
    KARAKURI Heavy Shotgun, Chain Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 38)
    KARAKURI Mk12, Chain Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 43)
    DOMARU Lieutenant Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 26)
    DOMARU Spitfire / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (2 | 39)
    TANKŌ Missile Launcher / Pistol, Monofilament CC Weapon, Shock CC Weapon. (1.5 | 32)
    TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    TOKUSETSU EISEI Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 20)
    KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
    WARCOR (360º Visor) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    6 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
     
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  18. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    So you forgo the bonuses of a full Core team, just so you can have a more flexible list to adjust to meta/missions...that's interesting.
    What was the reasoning that made you think that a Core of 3 plus an Haris was better than an full core of 5?
     
  19. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    For me is very easy: I started Infinity with Tohaa, so I always think in Triads. Having several Fireteams gives you great flexibility and Order efficiency.
    Also, with Core Fireteams you are usually carrying around troopers just for the Burst bonus, and sometimes is difficult to move around 5 people.

    And, as has been discussed before, a full DoTanko is a big chunk of your list points-wise, so a three-man-Core + Haris Fireteam leaves more points to expend on support troopers.
     
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  20. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Good points @Abrilete . I really love that +3 bonus, but since the ranged weapons on this team tend to be delivery devices for the CC chaos that happens when they get in close, you might as well just accept that the ranged guys are there to contest rolls while you approach and then the chainrifle or CC weapons do the rest of the work once in close.

    Unless you're facing Pan O, in which case don't even bother with the team unless you get the BS bonus IMO