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Mercs getting to be too much?

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Space Ranger, Sep 4, 2019.

  1. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    This was my first experience with the Tik. Played against a somewhat newer player's Tohaa, as maybe my 4th or 5th 300 point game of ASA. We called it after the first or maybe second turn and I apologized profusely.
     
  2. SpectralOwl

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    And some basically require SoF to function when Show of Force is in a tournament round. My ideal situation for Mercs is that they should be used to fill essential gaps in faction design, like having the Anaconda available to otherwise TAGless factions or Sectorials or the Wardriver for Hackerless ones so every army can fully participate in the game.

    Also, you're looking for a combat monster in the Mercs and overlook McMurrough? That's not wise...
     
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  3. AngryPanda

    AngryPanda Well-Known Member

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    There's also no Smoke Mercs for Vanilla factions. As for the interuder, MSV2 and negative hit mods are some sort of nomads exclusive now? The reason there's nothing in there for you is that you already have a faction that has almost everything it could ever want. And I've seen Libertos in almost every army that can take them by now, so it's not like you haven't been getting the newest Pan O toy right away.
     
  4. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    At this point I doubt there are many armies that don't have any decent shooting pieces.
    Some sectorials are sort of bland in that regard, but sectorials at least have links which patch that up.

    Who do you think struggles?
     
  5. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    JSA reaaaally struggles here. The best shooter is the Ryuken, which is almost always more of a "I can't hit you but you definitely can't hit me" situation due to relying on X-Visor.

    JSA is like the only faction where you can't get BS16 for under 120 (or maybe even 100) points at this point, I think.
     
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  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Do you mean BS 16 as in "prior to range MODs" or do you mean BS 16 after range mods? If it's the prior then there are plenty of factions that struggle to fit a BS 13+ model inside a Core that costs less than 100, as there are almost no BS 16+ models out there at all. If it's the latter then you're forgetting Karakuri, O-Yoroi, Daiyokai and Kempeitai inside Fireteams, as well as arguably Assisted Fire remotes.
    It's also not a goal that serves a real in-game purpose as you're going to need to look at what such a Fireteam would accomplish since simply having BS16 prior to range and cover MODs don't really fill a function on their own.
     
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  7. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    So far my worries are at Monstruckers. They literally demolished many vanilla Engineers, namely Zhanshi Gongcheng and so on.

    And who can say 'PanO cannot into fix anymore'? All the Machinists are now joblesa thanks to Truckers.

    Other profiles, IDC; I think they are fine.
     
  8. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    In order to make it completely true you'll have to find an actual breathing Vanilla PanO player.
     
  9. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    I can export some living specimen from here. Call your address; Fees for delivery can be told later.
     
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  10. Spitfire_TheCat

    Spitfire_TheCat Feel the Wrath of the Miezi-Bot

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    If, before the Kriza, you would have asked someone, what's the essential Nomads-unit, many would have answered "Intruder", so this special combination is ... not exclusive to Nomads, but in this combination a signature unit.

    And with the rest you support my argument. I don't use Mercs because Nomads have almost everything I want. So Mercs just level the differences between factions. Is this good? I don't think so. Otherwise, why should we have factions to beginn with if we level the differences between them with Mercs?

    And why are only some of the differences leveled? If I say "Nomads/Haqq/Ariadna need a BS15 Troops, because other factions have them and here they are missing." Where are these Uber-BS-Monster Mercs? The gaps in the roster of the combat factions get closed by mercs. Why? If I take all Mercs away, which factions are nerfed the most? If the usefullness of the mercs is not evenly spread then there are either too many Mercs of one kind existing or too little mercs of another kind.

    Yes, in one post in this thread I already said, that Libertos are used by everyone (except PanO for obvious reasons). But that's just, because they are just too good for the points, not because they fill a hole.
     
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  11. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I mean BS16 as Base BS + Fireteam bonus for a given unit.

    Here are some examples of what I mean, the cheapest Fireteam in each army with BS16+ and a B4 weapon:
    ASA: Orc HMG, BS17 for 84 points
    MO: Santiago Spitfire, BS17 for 95 points
    NCA: Bolt Spitfire BS16 and Aquila Multi BS18 (outside of the scope above, but maybe worth mentioning since BS18 MSV3) both under 100 points.
    VIRD: Kamau gets this for a whopping 68 points, and also picks Mimetism

    ISS: Crane Train 102 points
    IA: Haidao Red Fury 73 points

    CHA: Grey, 66 points
    MRRF: 3 Moblots 2 Metros, 87 points
    USA: Minuteman and Grunts, 74 points
    TAK: Vet Kazak + 4 Line Kazaks, 83 points

    HB: 4 Govads and an Asawira is the cheapest, I think? 123 total. BS17.
    QK: Sekban Spitfire w/ 2 Hafza, 99
    Ramah: Khawarij + Ghulam, 80. Tarik core is only 103.

    Corregidor: Wildcat spitfire 92. Brigada/Alguacile/Bot link can do it for 103 with HMG Brigada, but if you want to count Supportware it's only 102 points including the hacker on the Tsyklon for BS18.
    Bakunin: Riot Grrls for 142, this may actually be the only one more expensive than the JSA core.
    Tunguska: Securitates w/ Grenzer, 82

    Morats: Suryat + 4 Vanguard for 100 points
    Shas: Corax core 90, but Sheskin Core is only 110 for BS18.
    Onyx: If we count bots, Unidrons core for 74 points, 84 including the hacker. If not, Umbra and 4 Unidrons for 97. Rodok Core is only 100 w/ the Nexus.

    Steel Phalanx: No core link options
    OSS: If we count bots, hacker included Dakini link for 89 points. If not, we add an Apsara for 111.

    Tohaa: no core

    Druze: This faction has only 2 models with BS13, only one of which cores, and does not have a swc weapon. BS15 for 100 points (Druze and Brawlers.)
    Ikari: I think the only option here is the Wu Ming+Clipper FT, 132 points.
    StarCo: Riot Grrls and Avicenna is 142, Brigada flavor is 148
    Spiral: Tricore Neema 80 points
    FoCo: A-Team for 150.
    Dashat: Zuyong + 4 ABH for 83, Rui Shi flavor + Hacker is only 102

    So yes, only a handful of factions can't get BS16 for under 100 points, most of the remaining ones can do it for under 120, and JSA is uniquely one of only two sectorials (the other is Steel Phalanx) that can't do this at all with a B4 weapon. The best option is BS15 for 134 points. It is the only faction in the game unable to hit BS16 on a core linked unit of any cost.

    All I'm pointing out is that JSA is arguably the most undergunned faction in the game currently. An army with "no decent shooting pieces."
     
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  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    My issue with mercs as designed in Infinity is that they seem tacked-on. They are all fairly special, but at the same time they all try to not completely ruin certain hard-restrictions - only they make such restrictions seem very arbitrary because of it (there's no common doctor so Yu Jing can't have decent doctors, there's no common smoker so Pan-O can't have smoke, and there's no common MSV2 so that Ariadna can't see through smoke)

    Ideally, Mercs should be used to provide a common baseline troops or they need to build a robust mercenary system that introduces restrictions and costs in order to acquire such mercenaries.

    With "baseline" I mean what are typically mercenaries could provide the ubiquitous generic line infantry for the human factions. Such as, everyone has the generic conscript - the unit types recruited from the human masses to serve for a short period of time as part of their duties as citizens - or police enforcements or . They don't get special equipment and they are fairly blank no-names that are literally there as fillers, allowing the developers to make the actual faction units flourish. If a Celestial Guard are meant to be well-funded brutes in shiny armour, having access to conscripts or police officers or literal Yakuza would allow the Celestial Guard to step outside the role of order generator and have equipment suitable to illustrate why they are feared and hated.

    Or you make a robust system where hiring mercs is always available, but comes with a few drawbacks that actually hinders you. The Merc extra is close, but certain mercs are a bit too good for the -1 SWC to actually be a hindrance for most factions.

    @meikyoushisui and still, vanilla is a thing and they pull it off without BS16. Vanilla usually place well in tournaments. It's not a self-fulfilling goal.
    JSA being the least highly gunned faction is fine (one has to be, congratulations it's JSA), what has to be analysed is whether it actually is a problem rather than a design choice and whether there are approaches that makes the problem go away without removing the design choice.
    From results in tournaments it doesn't seem like it, but tournaments also seem to hint that order spam is still too strong/reliable and fixing that problem might make take away what makes JSA work at a high level - if it is ever fixed.
     
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  13. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    That one made me giggle - Armand the Sausage!
    Are we talking biltong again?
     
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  14. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Armand Le Fuet, Neurotic Chaksa, Kawaii Sentinel... I wasn't the one to coin the names, but I can't stop using them :p
     
    #54 Abrilete, Sep 6, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2019
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  15. Mcgreag

    Mcgreag Well-Known Member

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    They sort of fixed that this ITS season. They changed it so that it's either TAG or unit with Heavyweight which includes the Ratnik and Blackjack. Caledonia still can't do it but I think they are the only ones.
     
  16. Ceilican

    Ceilican Well-Known Member

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    Also Hassassin Bahram and ISS.
     
  17. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Well-Known Member

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    Not really with YJ engineer, 2 points is not critical difference to get another Irregular troop into the army
    5 points in nomads on the other hand...
     
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  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    And Steel Phalanx. I don't agree that Caledonia is shafted for specialists, they might be few but they aren't like HSN2 ISS*. All three, however, do LI far, far, better than Caledonia who only really can do LI with a list of Wulvers and Mormaers and without any real variation for the second list - in this respect they are like HSN2 ISS*.

    Now, if CB changed the requirement from TAG + Heavyweight to S5+, then all sectorials would be able to complete 10 OP in the "TAG" missions. Some better than others *coughdogfacescough*

    * I'm using HSN2 ISS as a metric because it was truly terrible with a representation so low you'd be excused for think exrahing would've gone by unnoticed.
     
  19. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Worth mentioning that the Libertos is distinctly not PanO.

    They may come from the same alien race, but Helot Militia and Libertos are extremely different units. PanO has no way to use the Liberto, and the Helot Militia unit is not a widely available Merc.
     
  20. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that's an ugly metric.

    Paradiso really started the objectives missions set, and you were basically looking at exactly ONE build for Imperial SS to be able to play in those missions. Even if you weren't playing the Paradiso missions, Imperial SS was so restricted in specialists that you could predict about 90% of a list before it hit the table.