1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

Intuitive LoF question

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Azuset, Dec 31, 2018.

  1. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2018
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    151
    If I have a Hsien Warrior on the table and an enemy unit is able to infiltrate up behind him (making it's deployment roll) will I be able to use an intuitive attack with the Nanopulser?

    During my game to day, I had a Hussein Al-Djabel deploy on my deployment zone. He deployed in the IMP-1 state and in the ZOC of my Hsien Warrior. In this instance the Al-Djabel was able to knife him to death not causing any AROs because the knife is silent.

    What if my opponent chose another weapon that was not silent. Could I use an intuitive attack even though it was from behind?



    Bonus Questions -

    1) If an unit fails its guts roll can it changes its facing if it moves 2 inches into cover or goes prone?

    2) How does using Advanced Airborn deployment generate AROs? The unit only has one action. Deployment. This action is taken without any models having LoF to that unit. When it lands (where ever that is????) it can't move or do any other actions. To me because it cannot generate AROs with the initial part of the skill and there is not a second opportunity to do so how it is that enemy troops get AROs?

    Thanks!
     
  2. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    676
    Likes Received:
    1,139
    • You can't use Intuitive Attack as an ARO.
    • Intuitive Attack still requires LoF.
    • If an IMP state trooper moves up into base contact with your model from behind, you gain LoF when it makes base contact.
    You probably want to have another look at the example for moving into base contact in Impersonation:
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Impersonation

    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/ad-jump-aro-sequence.26405/
     
    Azuset likes this.
  3. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2018
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    151
    Thanks for taking the time to help a new player out @solkan !

    I'll read these over.
     
  4. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2018
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    151
    Since change facing is a dodge can a unit change facing and disengage as a result of a successful dodge?
     
  5. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2018
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    151
    • You can't use Intuitive Attack as an ARO. - That answers that question!

    • Intuitive Attack still requires LoF. - Not exactly. Correct me if i'm wrong No where does it state you need LoF and the perk of this ability is that you can use is with out LoF in a No visibility zone. I do understand this now after reading again. It implies that you needed LoF to begin with.

    • If an IMP state trooper moves up into base contact with your model from behind, you gain LoF when it makes base contact - This because in base to base contact troops have 360 visibility?

    From what I can tell we did play out the Hussein Al-Djabel using a knife correctly. Thats good.
     
  6. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    676
    Likes Received:
    1,139
    No. Change Facing IS NOT A DODGE.
    • Change Facing works like the Dodge Skill in Reactive Turn, but the Roll to use it is PH-3 and the user does not get to Move on a success, only turn around so that the active enemy is inside his LoF.
    Only the actual Dodge skill has the effect of disengaging from close combat. Everything that the rules say "works like a Dodge" is just setting up a face-to-face roll against the attacker.
     
    DukeofEarl likes this.
  7. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    676
    Likes Received:
    1,139
    Silent on Knives comes up infrequently enough that if I don't double check it, I do it wrong. @Azuset, you did it wrong.

    When you enter base contact with a model, it gains LoF to you. That means that the CC attack with the Knife doesn't delay the victim's ARO. The victim still gets to Dodge or CC attack in defense as normal. The Silent attribute delays everyone else's responses to the attack, not the victim's.

    To break it down...
    The stuff in Silent:
    • Silent. If you use this weapon or piece of Equipment to make an Attack while outside the target's LoF, that target cannot react by Changing Facing or apply the Warning! rule unless he survives the Attack (that is, isn't in a Null state after the Attack is resolved).
      • Additionally, enemies without LoF in whose Zone of Control the Attack took place or was declared cannot declare AROs or apply the Warning! rule unless the target survives the Attack. This means that these enemies must delay their ARO declaration until after the Attack is resolved.
    The first part
    If you use this weapon or piece of Equipment to make an Attack while outside the target's LoF, that target cannot react by Changing Facing or apply the Warning! rule unless he survives the Attack (that is, isn't in a Null state after the Attack is resolved).​
    essentially only applies for ranged attacks, or the very rare case of being CC attacked inside of smoke. The structure of the sentence is weird, what you get out of a Silent CC attack is the second bullet point:
    Additionally, enemies without LoF in whose Zone of Control the Attack took place or was declared cannot declare AROs or apply the Warning! rule unless the target survives the Attack. This means that these enemies must delay their ARO declaration until after the Attack is resolved.​
    In other words, other nearby models won't get AROs or be able to use Warning unless the attacked model survives.

    There are additional interactions with Stealth, too.
    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/cc-atack-and-knife.23621/#post-110274

    To confirm your understanding...

    This bullet point
    only lets you ignore Zero Visibility Zones. All of the other LoF rules still apply. You don't get to shoot through total cover, or shoot behind your back because you're standing in a smoke cloud--you would need additional effects to waive those restrictions.

    It's Rules English, but it is what it is.



    Essentially, yeah. But what I wanted to point out was the difference in results between:
    • IMP trooper moves into base contact with you from behind, declares CC attack with Silent weapon. When IMP is cancelled, you get an ARO in base contact (because that's when you can see them).
    • IMP trooper moves into base contact with you in your front arc, declares CC attack with Silent weapon. When is cancelled, it's cancelled somewhat retroactively, you get an ARO to wherever you can see them without needing to use Intuitive Attack or something similar.
    The difference is just "Can you see them before they got to base contact?"
     
    toadchild and Azuset like this.
  8. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2018
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    151
    This was VERY helpful. It's those small details that make the difference.

    I am still going to think about this a bit though because I am not super clear.
     
  9. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2018
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    151
    Okay,

    We have a Hsien Warrior chilling in the a safe place (or so he thought) on the battlefield before the refblows the whistle.

    Next, there is his supposed "co-worker" Bob who gets him coffee every morning covering his six.

    *The Hsien thinks to him self "That's weird. How did Bob get assigned to this mission? He is the coffee guy. How did he even get clearance to be on the dropship??? Maybe Bob just wants a raise and brought my coffee to me out here because he know I was running late this morning and didn't get a chance to drink mine, huh?

    Bob then drops his disguise and dashes toward the Hsien knife unsheathed and ready for blood.

    When the now unmasked Hussein Al-Djabel reaches based to base using a silent weapon the Hsien immediately has LoF to the Hussein Al-Djabel. Correct?

    I just reread the 1.8 rules Close Combat Section. Its pretty short. I did'nt see where it said this. What it does say is:

    »»Be using a CC Weapon, or a Skill or piece of Equipment
    capable of a CC Attack.

    »»Be in base to base contact with an enemy.

    If I go on just that you don't even need LoF to make a CC attack. I checked the Skill as well and it says the same thing.

    I then checked the BS attack skill. It specifically says I need LoF.

    By this understanding I don't even need to turn around to do a CC Attack back correct?

    I would only want to use Change Facing if I wanted to turn around and maybe disengage next turn, right?
     
  10. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    3,739
    Likes Received:
    4,216
    You'd never use Change Facing if you get an ARO with an active model in B2B with you. You'd ALWAYS Dodge instead. You can Change Facing, but you should Dodge.

    From the LOF page, http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Line_of_Fire_(LoF)

    "LoF of Figures in CC
    Figures engaged in CC can draw a 360˚ LoF, but only to whatever they are in base contact with.

    Figures engaged in CC cannot draw LoF to models, Markers or any other elements with which they are not in base contact."
     
    #10 inane.imp, Jan 1, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
    Azuset likes this.
  11. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2018
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    151
    I can do a cc attack in base to base with out LoF, correct?
     
  12. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    675
    Likes Received:
    1,106
    The only time you will be in base to base and not have LOF is if you are inside a zero visibility zone.
    Regardless, CC Attack does not require LOF (so isn't affected by any visibility zones).
     
  13. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2018
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    151
    @Cartographer, so there is no benefit to using a melee weapon with the silent trait from behind, correct?

    If I use a knife to move into base to base from it's front arch with 1W model and kill it. Then that is just as good from behind, correct?
     
  14. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    675
    Likes Received:
    1,106
    In the case of a CC weapon, all silent does is prevent other models from reacting if they didn't already have LoF.
    Normally, if you're using stealth to move into base contact you don't trigger any AROs from your movement, but your CC attack will allow any enemy within 8" to react with a warning (or change facing, but there's no good reason to use it in this case). Using a silent CC weapon means that other models can't turn to face you (unless the target survived).
     
  15. JoKeR

    JoKeR HAWZA Instructor
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2017
    Messages:
    436
    Likes Received:
    297
    a) intuitive attack NOT let you fire from your rear arc.
    b) you cant use Intuitive attacks against Impersonators, cause you cant attack them before you discover them. by ANY means.
    c) as already stated - you cant use it on ARO cause it Entire Order skill
    By the way, in Engaged state you always have LoS to your adversary so can declare ARO.
    read Silent trait carefully - it only not let OTHER models declare ARO or warning, if knife used. & only if target not survive.
    also it work with Silent BS weapons like a tactical Bow.
     
  16. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    676
    Likes Received:
    1,139
    There's are separate but overlapping things going on:
    - Approaching from behind to get into base contact avoids ranged attacks from the victim. Many (if not most) models are going to have a better BS Attack ARO against the attacker than their CC Attack ARO, because things like Pistols have their bonus to hit in the 0-8" range band.
    - If you can shoot someone in the back, that's better than attacking them in melee. That's life.
    - If you're in the victim's ZoC and you shoot them from behind, normally they'd get a Change Facing ARO to try to prevent you hitting them. Silent prevents that.
    - It's better for the attacker to shoot someone outside of their ZoC. But the board is crowded, and if you're trying to sneak up or past models, that's going to put you in ZoC of them.

    - Using a silent weapon avoids AROs from nearby models. This is important because you're more likely to catch a group of models looking the wrong way, and if you kill the victim with your silent attack those other models won't be able to turn around.

    -The important feature of Silent that's easy to overlook is preventing the use of Warning! for other models to turn around. It's important enough that I'm going to repeat that it's important. Because the jackpot situation for AD is to come in behind several enemy models, and you lose that jackpot if Warning! kicks in and they turn around.

    If you had a silent ranged weapon, and a silent melee weapon, which one should you use to kill the target? That depends on which of your stats are better, and what the conditions are. But knives are more common that tactical bows, and those are the only hits I'm seeing for "Silent" on the weapon chart at the moment. (I'm writing this because I thought the game had other silenced ranged weapons, but I'm only seeing two on the chart.)

    If you're standing in the enemy model's ZoC and you're behind them, you've got options:
    1. If you move into base contact and CC attack them with a knife, their nearby friends won't be able to turn around if you kill the target. If there are other nearby models that are looking the wrong way (the right way for you), using the Silent melee weapon is going to leave them the wrong way if you incapacitate your victim.
    2. If you just shoot them, and you don't have one of the two Silent ranged weapons, they'll get to ARO Change Facing and use Warning! to have nearby models turn around.
    3. If you walk out of their ZoC and shoot them in the back without a Silent ranged weapon, then nearby models are going to be able to use Warning to turn around.

    Edit: I think I wrote the above bullet points assuming that Stealth would be used to avoid generating Change Facing AROs by nearby models. There are a lot of mechanics in the game set up so that if you get behind the reactive player's models, and you're nearby, those models are going to try to turn around. Silent and Stealth defeating those mechanisms is a big deal.

    If you have Impersonation, you may not be forced to make those decisions because of how the ARO choices get limited. But Discover AROs may be used to try to force the issue.
     
    #16 solkan, Jan 1, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
  17. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2018
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    151
    I want to make sure I understand what is going on. I think I may have it now. I'm not really sure why I am having a hard time with this one. I have read all the rules many times. Read this thread which has the rules copied to it many times. Examples are probably the best way for me to understand.

    I am going to post an example with my interpretation of everything that has been said in this thread.

    1) Hsien Warrior is facing west with his back to the east. The hsien is in the reactive turn. Now, we have a Hussein Al-Djabel that infiltrated as an IMP1 state into the Hsiens deployment zone 4 inches away from him to the east (behind the Hsien's 180 arch). In this example no one else will have LoF to Hussein Al-Djabel.

    The Hussein Al-Djabel player spends 1 regular order. The first short movement skill - move is declared. The Hussein Al-Djabel move into base to base contact behind the Hsien. The Hsien declares a CC attack on the Hussein Al-Djabel as his ARO. The Hsien can do this because CC Attacks don't require LoF and if it did it would not matter any way because if you are in base to base with a unit you have LoF. The second short skill - CC Attack with a Silent Knife is declared by the Hussein Al-Djabel.

    Now, based on the silent rule the Hsien must delay his CC attack until the silent Knife attack is resolved. The Hussein Al-Djabel passes his CC attack (which was not a face to face roll). In turn the Hsien takes and armor roll and fails it. The Hsien takes 1W and is still alive. At this point the Hsien's declared ARO (declared during the proper order. Right after the 1st Short movement skill declaration) will resolve.

    The Hsien rolls a normal, non-face to face, roll CC attack against the Hussein Al-Djabel. He rolls a crit. The Hussein Al-Djabel takes 1 wound and goes into Null state.

    The the above situations played correctly?

    This spured a new question if the above is correct. Would the Hsien then need to make a gut roll? Of course he has martial arts and therfore courage and would only need to take that if he wanted to auto fail the guts check, right?


    **Update** After I read this thread again I noticed I made a mistake. The silent rule says:
    • Additionally, enemies without LoF in whose Zone of Control the Attack took place or was declared cannot DECLARE AROs or apply the Warning! rule unless the target survives the Attack. This means that these enemies must delay their ARO DECLARATION until after the Attack is resolved.
    When would the Hsein declare his attack in the above example? Or would it be declared then be delayed?

    Normally the Hussein Al-Djabel would declare a move then the ARO would go off then the 2nd part of the order. In the case of a silent attack would that then cancel the 1st declaration and a 2nd declaration be made if the unit was alive?
     
    #17 Azuset, Jan 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
  18. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2017
    Messages:
    676
    Likes Received:
    1,139
    The important point here is that Impersonation grants Stealth. Stealth is what's letting you move around in ZoC of the other nearby enemy models without granting them a Change Facing ARO to turn around.

    The order sequence goes like this:
    1. You spend an order to activate the Hussein Al-Djabel, and declare the move into base contact. The Hussein moving into base contact with the target cancels its IMP state. The LoF rules in one sentence specify that troopers that are engaged has 360 degree LoF but only to models in base contact, so both models can see each other, regardless of which their front arcs are positioned at this point.

    Assuming you're using Stealth like a reasonable person, the Hussein Warrior doesn't get to declare an ARO to the Move.
    2. the Hussein Al-Djabel declares Surprise Attack (CC Attack) with its Knife. Impersonation grants Surprise Attack, and you in the IMP state at the beginning of the order, so you can do this and there's really no reason not to.
    3. The Hsien Warrior declares its ARO now because of the non-Movement skill. The Hsein can declare Dodge, or CC Attack, because it's now Engaged and can see the enemy trooper. (Silent does not delay these AROs, it only delays Change Facing. An Engaged model isn't going to do that, so it doesn't matter.)

    Nobody is making a normal roll, Whether the Hsein Warrior declares CC Attack or Dodge, that's going to be Face-to-Face against the Hussein Al-Djabel's attack. The Silent rule does not delay the Dodge/CC Attack ARO.

    The only AROs Silent delays are Change Facing AROs. Engaged models aren't allowed to declare Change Facing, so that part is not going to matter at all when you're using a Knife.

    Where Silent on the Knife is going to matter is the two nearby but not-in-LoF friendly models. Change your example so that instead of just one Hsein Warrior facing to the west, but line of up three of them in a row a few inches apart designated HW1 HW2 HW3, each one looking at the back of the next one. And your Hussein Al-Djabel Good Guy tries to kill the last one in line.

    So the Good Guy activates and moves into base contact with HW3. HW1 and HW2 can't see Good Guy but Good Guy is in their ZoC. Stealth prevents HW1 and HW2 getting an ARO to declare Change Facing, so they have to wait.
    HW3 chooses between CC Attack or Dodge against Good Guy.
    Good Guy declares Surprise Attack (CC Attack) with Knife to try to kill HW3. HW1 and HW2 delay their Change Facing AROs because of the Silent rule.

    If HW3 gets killed, Silent on the Knife prevents HW1 and HW2 using the Warning! rule to turn around to face Good Guy. So Good Guy gets to use its next order to repeat this process and kill HW2; and then if HW2 gets killed then kill HW1. If HW3 survives, then HW1 and HW2 get to choose between declaring a Change Facing ARO or using Warning to turn around.

    What happens if Good Guy decides to just punch HW3 (using the default CC weapon Fists) instead of Knife?
    In that case, when Good Guy declares Surprise Attack (CC Attack) with Fists, HW1 and HW2 have to choose whether they want to declare Change Facing or use Warning! to turn around to face Good Guy. They don't wait to see whether HW1 survives the attack.

    Silent does not turn the exchange between HW3 and Good Guy into normal rolls, or delay HW3's AROs. Because HW3 and Good Guy can see each other, the only benefit you get in preventing HW1 and HW2 (the bystanders) being able to turn around if HW3 gets killed.

    Edit: Once again, I forgot to apply Stealth during the closing maneuvers the first time I posted this. So corrected the order sequence. There's a lot of strange minor cases involving Stealth where you'd want to turn it off, I don't think this is one of them.
     
    #18 solkan, Jan 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2019
    inane.imp and Azuset like this.
  19. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    3,739
    Likes Received:
    4,216
    Sequence is actually as follows:

    1. Your opponent activates Al Djabel
    2. Your opponent spends a Regular order from their order pool
    3. Your opponent declares Move (with Stealth) and moves into B2B with your Hsien, outside his facing
    4. Your Hsien now has LOF to Al Djabel, however due to Stealth* your Hsien does not have an ARO at this time
    5. Al Djabel declares Surprise Attack using MA3 and with his Knife
    6. Your Hsien gets an ARO because Stealth was broken
    7. You determine MODs and make rolls.
    8. Your Hsien survives! Yeah. Anybody through who's ZOC Al Djabel has passed can now ARO (usually only Change Facing, but there's a couple of others).
    9. Anybody within ZOC of the Hsien but who hasn't ARO'd can Warning! Probably nobody needs to Guts.

    * "A trooper with Stealth that declares a Short Movement Skill or Cautious Movement within the Zone of Control of one or more enemies but outside their LoF does not grant AROs to those enemies, even if he reaches base contact with them.

    However, if the second Short Skill of the Order is any non-Movement Skill, then those enemies can react normally in ARO."
     
    E-Warden and Azuset like this.
  20. Azuset

    Azuset Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2018
    Messages:
    399
    Likes Received:
    151
    @inane.imp where does the silent rule from the knife fit into place?