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Why does Onyx have such punishing SWC hikes on the Legate Lieutenants?

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by Hecaton, Jun 1, 2018.

  1. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I think CB treats these things more like guidelines. Troopers at 40 points usually have higher ARM, W, BS, or visual mods. Umbra's are light in those areas. Their advantages are slightly different and they make terrible gunfighters in my experience. It's a nice option sure, but i never waste SWC on them to go around shooting. I usually have them doing something else and if they can shoot my opponent along the way, great.

    So I think an SWC cost of 1 for the spitfire is palatable, not 1.5 as on the Legate. Making one of these Umbra's my Lt does nothing but persuade me to shoot less. The Umbra's need be played in such a way to minimize the risks. Play it smart and gain some wounds first then shoot in relative safety. However, the Samaritan is still a bad gunfighter with BS 12 and no mods whatsoever. I don't think a 0.5 SWC spitfire would be a terrible idea for the Samaritan. The Legate can Cybermask and surprise shot but that's order intensive. Making the Legate 1 SWC would be better, making it 0.5 would be great.

    My preferred Onyx Lt is the Samaritan Breaker combi.
     
  2. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    Sometimes I feel like people's opinions can be really skewed based on what they're used to playing. A BS12, burst4 weapon isn't bad, it's average at worst, especially considering how onyx now gets cheap white noise and umbras get to move 6 and still shoot, making it a little easier to fire from odd angles and maybe catch an enemy out of cover.

    I really don't see the point of an arbitrary reduction in the swc cost of an Umbra. Honestly I'd rather see something like Samaritans getting mimetism on top of their current skills, even if that would make them more expensive.
     
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  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I'd love it if Protheion gave Shock Immunity from the getgo.
     
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  4. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I don't see anything skewed. White noise can be applied to almost any other trooper so it becomes a common denominator and thus irrelevant. It's not an advantage of the Samaritan.

    A BS12, B4 weapon isn't bad but it doesn't tell the whole story. The other profile has a gun too. So what we're talking about is paying 1SWC and 4 pts to add 1 burst, 1 dmg, +6 between 16-24", but lose +3 between 0-8" and breaker ammo.

    The upgrade from a breaker combi to spitfire is ok. But I must consider the platform it's on. No visual mods, low armor, no shock immunity at first is terrible when those advantages can be found on other troopers. The Samaritan has other priorities. It wants to be munching on the enemies juicy bits. Sure it's nice to have a good gun in the 16-24" rangeband but odds are I'm trying to close that gap on my opponent. And if i'm not shooting at that rangeband I'm absolutely fine using the breaker combi instead.

    Once the Samaritan gains extra wounds it's still not an efficient shooter. Being able to take crits and extra hits is nice but winning those FTF rolls is often more important. I'd rather use a Red Fury Xeodron in those cases for the same SWC. It costs more points but it's far lass fragile, has a higher super jumping point, more BS, better guns, and only loses some speed, CC ability, and can be hacked.

    I've already stated the spitfire Samaritan can do some good work but when weighing the pros and cons i'd rather take a different approach. I'd rather cautious move and pounce when the odds are more in my favor. Preferably once someone else has done the shooting and I'm free to CC. Making the fragile Umbra the LT on top off those points just makes it even more dangerous to engage in shooting early on.
     
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  5. Fyeya

    Fyeya Yakitori over a light flamethrower

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    I play JSA, we pay LT SWC tax like mad. I guess I'm used to it and it no longer phases me.
     
  6. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I don't really think this is a fair comparison. I mean, on one hand you are right, the Xeodron is a better gunfighter, but of course it is! That's what it was built for. The Samaritan is not that. I always see putting the Spitfire on the Samaritan as a way to shore up a weakness, than to compliment a strength.

    The Samaritan is a close up fighter, that much is brutally obvious. By putting the Spitfire on the Samaritan, you are giving that CC specialist some ranged options that it otherwise wouldn't have. Obviously, there is the trade-off you mentioned, but that's something that should be weighed on a case-by-case basis and not dismissed out of hand.

    Note, also, that by taking the RF Xeodron, you are giving up stealth, the ability to go prone and cautious move (for 6", no less!).
     
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  7. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Turning a weakness into a strength would be great if that's what it felt like. The range band just doesn't compliment what the Samaritan is trying to do imo. It wants to avoid being shot at and get to close range. I'm actively trying to stay away from the 16-24" band.

    If I wanted a spitfire with some mobility, I'd consider a different route again and take a Fraacta spitfire.
     
    #27 Ginrei, Jun 8, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
  8. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    You might be expecting a bit too much, then. I never said the Spitfire would turn the weakness into a strength... just that the weakness would be less weak (I mean, it's not like 4 dice on 15s is bad...). There will always be better options for the 16"-24" range because that not what the Samaritan is built for. Taking the Spitfire on the Samaritan, however, does allow you to use the one piece instead of two if your goal is to move him up the board across a less-than-dense area of the map. I'd even go so far as to argue that anything with rifle range is even less useful, because by the time you get close enough to take advantage of the +3, you are usually close enough to just engage and eat them.
     
  9. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    The point of the Spitfire is to allow the Samaritan to get across the 16-24" gap, and to use Super Jump to outrange troopers with Combi Rifles/Rifles. Every time I've taken the Breaker Combi LT I've wished that I had the SWC to take the Spitfire instead. As Sabin76 says, once you're at the point where the Spitfire is in +0 range you're typically running into CC, and if you're not then the increased Burst over the Breaker Combi already helps balance out the reduced BS - especially against two targets.
     
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  10. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Super Jumping to find a target usually leaves the jumping trooper exposed to other AROs themselves. Especially looking at longer range bands. And if you're super jumping to get LoF it probably wasn't a threat to the Samaritan to begin with. I certainly wouldn't risk it against shock ammo, one crit and your LT is dead. There's also no cover super jumping so you really need to win that FTF.

    I'm not denying the spitfire helps in those situations. I'm just not going to put myself into them. I'm quite happy munching on those button pushing specialists that get a little too close. I'll use other tools with better odds and fewer risks do the shooting.
     
  11. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Yeah, that's kind of the point...
     
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  12. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I think you misunderstand. It's not a threat in the sense that it can't prevent the Samaritan completing whatever goal set out for it. If i have to super jump to find a shot, i'm creating a LoF and ARO the trooper wouldn't otherwise have.
     
  13. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Yeah, that goes both ways. :(

    Given the strengths of 6-2 MOV, Super Jump, Stealth and a Spitfire, my Samaritan is usually hunting down line troopers and thinning out the opponent's Order Pool before going after harder targets. Most players don't take into account the manoeuvrability of a Samaritan when deploying, and will leave weaker troopers 'hidden' in places that can be relatively easily accessed by a trooper that can jump 6" straight up.
     
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  14. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    That's what the Red Fury Xeodron is for IMO. 4-4MOV, S6, BS13, shock ammo, ARM5, STR3, remote presence, bioimmunity, a blitzen, and it's not my LT.
     
  15. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    I use both, intensively.

    The Xeodron is Hackable/Possessable, noticeably slower, doesn't have Stealth, can't hide behind lower terrain, is much worse in close quarters and is nearly 50% more expensive.
     
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  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I don't want to play the "git gud" card, but this hasn't been my experience. Super jump dramatically enhances the ability of a trooper to engage another trooper 1 on 1, as well as to get normal rolls by shooting troopers in the back arc from in front of them.

    I oftentimes find myself running the breaker combi Samaritan when I do run a Samaritan because it helps it with what it wants to do, which is go in close. Spitfire has the awkardness of the 0 range band up close.
     
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  17. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    lol, 34% more pts and 0% more SWC.

    I agree they have slightly different strengths and weaknesses. I just feel those strengths and weaknesses compliment the roles I've described more. I'm not too worried about the Xeodron's CC ability when it's trying to stay at arms length at 24". I'd like to say anything approaching is perfect for the Samaritan but i can't claim them to always be near each other. I don't typically take the Haris either.

    So just to recap because I don't think I have much else to add on this subject. The RF Xeodron picks off those vulnerable troops and the Samaritan defends, not via AROs, but through it's mobility and Protheon. It protects that LT order while still being a killer for those getting to close.

    Back arc from in front of them what? I assume you simply mean outside their LoF? I can't say that's my experience. I don't rambo forward with my LT, nor does my opponent expose themselves that badly. But really, I don't see how this type of play is exclusive to the Samaritan. A Xeo is perfectly capable of this.
     
  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Check the 8th post in this thread. Also, due to the difference in their first MOV value and the base sizes, a Samaritan is much more mobile than a Xeodron - for example, Xeodron cannot jump to the top of a 3" building in one short skill.
     
  19. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Combining intent play/pie slicing to pull that off is such bad gamesmanship anyone that ever insisted on doing that would be blacklisted. My group does not allow troops to cover both corners either.

    Also when it comes to super jump, we don't make it overly complicated. Trying to measure arcs, deal with silhouettes, and terrain isn't how we enjoy playing. We allow that Xeo to get on the building, even a 4" high one, in a single short skill. We move those 4" hurdling any 4" high obstacles. Keeps the game moving.
     
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  20. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    If you're not using the Jump rules then it's not a surprise that we have different opinions of units. :(
     
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