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When do Pilots and their TAG both generate an Order token?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Ginrei, Jun 23, 2019.

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  1. Bobman

    Bobman MERC
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    This is another pointless multi page thread. After the answer is given, if its worded poorly the discussion should be how to make the wording better. Not go round in circles for as long as possible.

    Another nail in this coffin.
     
  2. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    As per all the replies given, Pilot is an alternative troop profile for the TAG, not an extra troop profile, the pilot rules themselves tie up the order generation to the TAG and not the pilot.
     
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  3. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    In topic

    That’s a generalization of the other rules that’s a dangerous thing to do; however if that help you to put in context why the operator cannot generate an order from inside the TAG using the game rules logic it’s ok (but always acknowledging that it’s not stated anywhere this works like this; the Operator don’t get a free order just for him when he is ejected for example.)

    The post nº90 of @Ginrei summarices it pretty nicely. Following strictly the RAW we have 2 profiles in the table and no written rule that prevent the pilot for generating an order (while the TAG not unconscious or Dead)

    Pretty much what @meikyoushisui said. I like a lot how the infinity rules are organized, they are short and concise and as they are built in “modules” thanks to general rules, skills, abilities and equipment you could change rules very easily controlling what you are touching. However that short and concise approach has a big drawback, we sometimes lack context and if a critical piece of information is missing, like the one discussed here (multiprofiles only generate 1 order if both profiles are in the table) then things can go sideways easy. For this I also think that an evolving rule system would be beneficial because Infinity rules make that easy.

    Writing the pilar of the earth saga infinity version is not the solution of course, but a secondary layer of rules that spell out niche interaction and with some optional “rules in context” topics that won’t add new rules but state the official RAI would help a lot. I’d try to put an example of this later, im running out of time now.

    Infinity army are not the rules, or should I use the order generated by model in hidden deployment? They appear in my infinity army list.

    +1

    The problem is, you don’t count the “active” profiles when gathering orders, just the profiles in the table with no restriction to generate them.

    I’m not challenging this and I think everyone agree with that reading. The point is how the written rules fail to suggest that.


    For the main topic it’d be useful to see the quotes of the part of the rules that the players think that defend the idea of the pilot not generating the order (but form a strictly RAW pov) and possible ways to make the rules clearer. The RAI topic is beaten to death by now.



    RAW/RAI offtopic
    Holy cow! You guys have been busy this night XDD.

    I’ll try to answer a few posts but I’ll give my opinion first. The rules forum is the best place to discuss this kind of topics, it’s much more neutral here than in the middle of a tournament, going against the clock and biased because the answer could give you a big advantage.

    Also notice that this game have a lot of different players: some are very good with their hands and post amazing models and scenography in the other forums, other like wild theories about the lore, other just want a quick answer about how this works to go back to play, and some others (like me) like go deep with rules mechanic. There is a place for everyone here, let the artisans do their scenery, and let us the lawyer play with the rules; but also take advantage of it!

    We will expose holes in the rules like in this thread; not to say this is the right way to play, but to to have these holes fixed where time and resources allow. This is also a good resource because the word of users like ijw or psychotic storm could be used against someone that try to lawyer this in a game and it could also trigger a quick rulling from a CB staff that are widely accepted as part of the rules.

    So if you see some players “wrestling” with the rules while acknowledging they know and don’t challenge the RAI, don’t get nervous and just get into it if that’s fun for you.

    Ty man, I appreciate it!

    Things aren’t black or white. You can read the rules as a cold set of instructions (that are what they are in the end) and follow those instructions blindly (RAW), and you can also understand the context and the intent behind the rules (RAI). Both skills are necessary and complementary, not mutually exclusive.

    And also this, knowing these issues may help you to know if some player is trying to lawyer versus you or not. I’m not a Tohaa player but I engaged for fun in a stratuscloud thread; I could defend versus a TO that once one Stratuscloud is cancelled no other state may be activated (so versus an enemy list that have 3 draals, the 3 must be activated the same turn) or I could also defend that you can activate it as many time as you want per game (as long as you have a baggage bot). In this case, the first one is RAW, the second one is probably the RAI.

    Bashing the rules and pissing on them for no reason have the opposite desired effect. Well-constructed and thoroughly arguments are considered.

    ^ This guy got it, all of this is just rhetoric, we all know the RAI and we will play it; but when time and resources allow it we also want our matching and clear RAW; and this is the way.


    We have discussed about a lot of things here. I want to help to improve the rules for the sake of better rules, but the point about the new player stands; this interaction is niche but could happen in the very first game of a player (2 new players, Player A in active turn uses Expel sucessfuly but then fail to damage the TAG and the pilot. Player B starts his turn with the 2 fully operative profiles in the table)

    Yeah, for white hatting permission is usually required because you are breaking the law, here we are just discussing rules; this is feedback not a potential crime. And the amount of players getting this wrong this is not the point; the point is that the RAI not match the RAW, and also this issue could be solved adding/changing 3 just lines in the whole rulebook.

    I know this won’t get a hot fix, it’s not even needed because everyone know the RAI, but in the next edition/if the live rulebook is implemented if this is not calling out this mechanic could continue unchanged.
     
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  4. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    While I admire the enthusiasm for longer and more detailed rules, experience tells me that page long detailed rules are not that much appreciated even with free PDF we get complains for "too many rules" sure there is a percentage of the player base who would not mind the rules been 400 pages (random number) and be super detailed with tons of examples for weird interactions but to be frank it is not the majority by far.

    Now, again, for the TAG, the TAG is the trooper, the pilot is an alternative profile for the TAG, the pilot does not generate an order since the TAG is the order generating trooper,mind you for those that said TAG does nothing when the pilot is out, the TAG does do something, it generates the order for the order reserve, the pilot does not generate their own order, hence why they loose it when the TAG enters unconscious state.

    I understand it may be counter intuitive especially since people by default expect the pilot and not the machine to be the order generating model, but it is what it is.
     
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  5. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    The rules don't support your interpretation. I've already pointed out exactly why this is.
    It's not definitive. Army may indicate one thing, but it does not tell the whole story. Players need to recalculate order generation during a game. Army doesn't do that. What happens when one of those 2+ troopers dies? How do we determine what orders are generated then? We look to the rules to tell us. And in doing so they tell us a Pilot will generate an order while Dismounted.
    I've clearly shown that not to be the case. Just saying something ties it up doesn't make it true. Where are the facts and rules explicitly supporting your argument? I've shown rules that discuss the Pilots order generation explicitly. Defined terms. Referenced other rules that say when orders are not generated.

    Do I really need to repeat all those facts and arguments every single time someone posts saying something to the effect of...'but the rules only support my interpretation, what rules you ask? they're in the book of course.' At least @Dragonstriker gave an example we can discuss.
    I've literally suggested a way to clear this up that would shorten the rules. Others will welcome a short and long version. I don't think defending a rules flaws makes sense because doing it right requires too many words. What is necessary is never unwise.

    Please do not just TELL me the Pilot doesn't generate the order. Knowing the intent of the rule doesn't mean following the instructions of any given rule leads us to that intent. Follow the steps in the rules to generate an order and show me how it supports your statement. If an alternative profile is active alongside the TAGs profile show me where the rules explain the alternative profile doesn't generate an order.

    It would also be nice if you could explain things like this in the rules:
    • An expelled Pilot continues to generate Orders for her Order Pool.
    Edit, I've also shown how the default position in Infinity is that every single profile generates an order. The Pilot rule itself backs this by stating the ONE exception when the Pilot doesn't generate an order::
    • The Pilot of an Unconscious Vehicle or TAG generates no Orders for himself or for his Order Pool.
     
    #105 Ginrei, Jun 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
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  6. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    @psychoticstorm If the TAG+Pilot relationship was as obvious as you imply, we wouldn't have a 6 page thread already. Where is the smoking gun that ends the debate? If I asked you to tell me why a Servant doesn't generate an order in addition to it's Doctor, the debate would end after one quote:

    G: SERVANT AUTOMATIC SKILL
    EFFECTS
    • G: Servant troopers don't provide Orders to the Order Pool, and cannot receive Orders from their Order Pool.
     
  7. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    So a rule that says "these are two alternative profiles for the same model" and "to change from A to B and viceversa do this" is not supported by the rules?

    Please, go on...
     
  8. Bobman

    Bobman MERC
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    As has been pointed out many times. The manned and pilot rules allow the use of alternate profiles.
     
  9. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    The expel rule is there to point out that the pilot still generates orders since the TAG is still alive, in any case the pilot is an alternative profile and has rules that dictate that the order they have is tied to the TAG model not the pilot model.
     
  10. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I have one point to add here. I don't actually claim to know the RAI. When i find conflict my preference is to default to the RAW.

    The only reason I follow the perceived RAI of the majority is because challenging the established community is not worth the trouble. The problem is every rule is different and the correct choice between multiple interpretations and intent isn't always clear. And I loathe following the perceived majority solely because they are the majority. I prefer to make up my own mind.
     
  11. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Exactly. What’s the old saw about a horse and water?
     
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  12. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Let's sum up this thread :
    the correct answer has been given page 1 on the second answer (TAG and pilot = 2 profile of the same unit so one order) => Thanks @Diphoration

    A very nice summary has been written page 2 (and is perfectly correct both regarding RAW and RAI)
    Then we have 4 pages of discussion, not about what the rules means but on how they can be wrongly understood if someone work hard enough (I'm pretty sure there is a name for that)

    Could we close this now ?

    If people want to discuss how they don't like the way the rules are written, please open an independant topic and stop polluting rules questions with it.
     
  13. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    @tox @Bobman @psychoticstorm All three of you claim the 'alternative' profile is the key. @psychoticstorm flat out says "in any case the pilot is an alternative profile and has rules that dictate that the order they have is tied to the TAG model not the pilot model." Where is this rule? Or is just the 'alternative' profile?

    You are all attaching some meaning to an 'alternative' profile that does not exist. It isn't a defined term in the rules like Attack or ZoC. In the end, an 'alternative' profile is just another troop profile. How that profile functions is governed by the rules already. When two troop profiles are present on the table, the rules are explicit that they generate orders.

    I have no problem following your logic to see where it leads us. Let's all apply your interpretation of 'alternate' to other parts of the game to see how plausible it is.

    When a Fraacta uses Transmutation to activate/substitute/switch to it's 'alternative' does it still generates an order under your interpretation? I would say no because as you say 'alternative' profiles don't produce orders. Or can you explain how your interpretation prevents the Dismounted Pilot generating an order but not the Transmuted Fraacta?

    TRANSMUTATION AUTOMATIC SKILL
    EFFECTS
    • The user substitutes his Troop Profile with the alternative version indicated on the Army List.
    • Replace the user's model with his alternate form at the end of the Order in which he lost the first point of his Wounds/STR Attribute. From that moment on, the user adopts his alternate form's Troop Profile.
     
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  14. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    The Pilot and Remote Pilot rules need a rewrite. The players know that, and I can confirm that CB know that. It's not going to happen in the immediate future.

    In the mean time,

     
  15. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Again, it must be nice to dismiss any legitimate error in the rules as Rule Lawyer'ing. If you find a rule confusing to yourself, I assume that's not a case of Rule Lawyer'ing. When you feel a rule is obvious and someone else questions it, that's Rule Lawyer'ing? Where is this magical line drawn between legitimate rule issues and trolling/Rule Lawyer'ing?
    If only that was true. This thread is a clear indication they don't agree. That, or they simply want to disagree with anything I post.

    I'm glad you've admitted it though. Because people value your opinion a lot more than mine.
     
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  16. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Minor corrections:
    1) A TAG is a model with two distinct alternative profiles. They can be both on table, but you will always activate just one of them.
    2) A TAG profile generates 1 Order. Pilot profiles don't generate Orders at all, whether they are in the TAG or Dismounted.
    3) As it's the TAG that generates Orders, it's the Unconscious state (or other Null state) of the TAG that matters. (EDIT - for Order generation.)
     
  17. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    @A Mão Esquerda first you come yourself with the argument about how important it is how you deliver something and afterwards when its fits your opinion you suddenly like posts like this:

    Most hypocritcal shit i've seen someone do in a long time. :ok_hand:


    Have fun insulting each other folks.
     
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  18. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Yep, I have something with rules; I’d take that as a compliment XDD
    I understand that the playerbase is very heterogeneous and forge “a rulebook to appease them all” is not easy. I've some ideas but this thread isn't the right place to name them.

    Lol, of course you know the RAI. Just check how every other model works; there isn't a single model in this game that generate 2 regular orders, and it's clear that this is caused for some obvious issues in the wording. You also have the responses from ijw and Psychoticstorm pointing the right direction. The RAI it's not the issue here.
    Just an advice. Discussing the RAW/RAI going full RAW and ignoring everything else while engaging with users and mods is the recipe for disaster. If you want your feedback heard, that's the wrong strategy; you are making an awful job getting people to your side!

    @Diphoration summariced it pretty well, but the answer nº1, for some reason ignored, also gave the right answer.

    This topic was open to discuss how this particular issue works from a RAW perspective. The RAI is pretty clear, I acknowledge it (again, check the first response).

    I'm interested in discussing this from a RAW perspective, but I just can't with so much noise in this thread; so please (and this goes with no animosity), any user that is not interested in that, please just stop posting here. I know that you know how this work, I don't need to hear again that the pilot doesn't generate any order, I know it. Just let me have my rethoric conversation about RAW and of course join in it if you want.
     
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  19. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    lol, I really don't know the RAI. It's checking how every other model works that makes me question it in the first place. All those examples explicitly tell us no order is generated or how it's played. If the rules made absolutely no mention of a TAG+Pilot orders I'd be more inclined to assume only one order is ever generated. It's the fact the rules specifically reference the TAG or Pilot orders in various places that indicates to me they took them into account already. I can't start questioning the rules that are already there unless they directly conflict with other rules.

    The rules are a mishmash of wording and terminology that is unclear and undefined. Combine this with a structure.. I'll spare everyone the rest of my thoughts on that subject. But the result is I don't trust my own assumptions when it comes to the rules. Therefore, I can only rely on the RAW to guide me.

    IJW & Psych have more insight into CB's intent than I do, but they are not perfect. Look at this thread for example. Psych told us how to play these rules. But his explanations do not show me if he recognizes that the RAW provide different instructions. If he does recognize this and he's just telling me how the rules are intended to be played, it doesn't come across that way. It comes across as him telling me the rules work fine and a correct reading should lead me to his conclusion. That's extremely difficult to accept. IJW on the other hand pointed out the rules need a rewrite. Indicating there are problems with them, which is a lot easier to stomach.

    I just wish the community could look at the rules objectively for what they are. Without bending them to anyone's perceived intent. Discuss what they actually tell us do. Whether there's more than one valid interpretation or not. The writers Intent really is separate from that. Discussing that perceived intent is a factor for us to use when deciding how to play the RAW. Posters with more insight and contact with CB obviously have their opinion on intent weighted higher than the rest. What they don't have is more weight when it comes to RAW.

    Unfortunately, I'm not going to take part in any popularity contest to win people over to my side. I'm content to converse with the few people who can put all that aside and focus on the facts. I completely understand those people are few and far between.
     
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  20. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Think about how frequently there are issues with stuff because the order sequence isn't clearly defined, or the recent debate about when in the deployment phase you can form fireteams. The regular rules are fine for 90% of cases/games, but there are some things that are just super wonky in nature (Holoecho state, for example, has all sorts of interactions that people would be more comfortable with if they were spelled out, such as Holoing a Hacker as a non-hacker and getting unopposed rolls) or are rules overload when written down and could be separated out into "here's the gist so you can understand this" and "here's all the deep stuff and interactions this needs to sort out" such as G:Remote Presence.


    The problem is when people have conflicting opinions about the RAI -- and I'll say it again, I've been told many times that for some reason I'm less qualified to interpret the RAI than any other random dude on the forum who isn't associated with CB. Ideally though, the RAW would be clean and clear enough that there never needs to be a debate about the RAI -- and I personally don't feel this is asking too much. The game is 90-95% of the way there, we just need to fix the last 5-10% (which is the hardest, of course.)
     
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