When do Pilots and their TAG both generate an Order token?

This is another pointless multi page thread. After the answer is given, if its worded poorly the discussion should be how to make the wording better. Not go round in circles for as long as possible.

Another nail in this coffin.

 

As per all the replies given, Pilot is an alternative troop profile for the TAG, not an extra troop profile, the pilot rules themselves tie up the order generation to the TAG and not the pilot.

 

In topic

That’s a generalization of the other rules that’s a dangerous thing to do; however if that help you to put in context why the operator cannot generate an order from inside the TAG using the game rules logic it’s ok (but always acknowledging that it’s not stated anywhere this works like this; the Operator don’t get a free order just for him when he is ejected for example.)

The post nº90 of @Ginrei summarices it pretty nicely. Following strictly the RAW we have 2 profiles in the table and no written rule that prevent the pilot for generating an order (while the TAG not unconscious or Dead)

Pretty much what @meikyoushisui said. I like a lot how the infinity rules are organized, they are short and concise and as they are built in “modules” thanks to general rules, skills, abilities and equipment you could change rules very easily controlling what you are touching. However that short and concise approach has a big drawback, we sometimes lack context and if a critical piece of information is missing, like the one discussed here (multiprofiles only generate 1 order if both profiles are in the table) then things can go sideways easy. For this I also think that an evolving rule system would be beneficial because Infinity rules make that easy.

Writing the pilar of the earth saga infinity version is not the solution of course, but a secondary layer of rules that spell out niche interaction and with some optional “rules in context” topics that won’t add new rules but state the official RAI would help a lot. I’d try to put an example of this later, im running out of time now.

Infinity army are not the rules, or should I use the order generated by model in hidden deployment? They appear in my infinity army list.

+1

The problem is, you don’t count the “active” profiles when gathering orders, just the profiles in the table with no restriction to generate them.

I’m not challenging this and I think everyone agree with that reading. The point is how the written rules fail to suggest that.


For the main topic it’d be useful to see the quotes of the part of the rules that the players think that defend the idea of the pilot not generating the order (but form a strictly RAW pov) and possible ways to make the rules clearer. The RAI topic is beaten to death by now.



RAW/RAI offtopic
Holy cow! You guys have been busy this night XDD.

I’ll try to answer a few posts but I’ll give my opinion first. The rules forum is the best place to discuss this kind of topics, it’s much more neutral here than in the middle of a tournament, going against the clock and biased because the answer could give you a big advantage.

Also notice that this game have a lot of different players: some are very good with their hands and post amazing models and scenography in the other forums, other like wild theories about the lore, other just want a quick answer about how this works to go back to play, and some others (like me) like go deep with rules mechanic. There is a place for everyone here, let the artisans do their scenery, and let us the lawyer play with the rules; but also take advantage of it!

We will expose holes in the rules like in this thread; not to say this is the right way to play, but to to have these holes fixed where time and resources allow. This is also a good resource because the word of users like ijw or psychotic storm could be used against someone that try to lawyer this in a game and it could also trigger a quick rulling from a CB staff that are widely accepted as part of the rules.

So if you see some players “wrestling” with the rules while acknowledging they know and don’t challenge the RAI, don’t get nervous and just get into it if that’s fun for you.

Ty man, I appreciate it!

Things aren’t black or white. You can read the rules as a cold set of instructions (that are what they are in the end) and follow those instructions blindly (RAW), and you can also understand the context and the intent behind the rules (RAI). Both skills are necessary and complementary, not mutually exclusive.

And also this, knowing these issues may help you to know if some player is trying to lawyer versus you or not. I’m not a Tohaa player but I engaged for fun in a stratuscloud thread; I could defend versus a TO that once one Stratuscloud is cancelled no other state may be activated (so versus an enemy list that have 3 draals, the 3 must be activated the same turn) or I could also defend that you can activate it as many time as you want per game (as long as you have a baggage bot). In this case, the first one is RAW, the second one is probably the RAI.

Bashing the rules and pissing on them for no reason have the opposite desired effect. Well-constructed and thoroughly arguments are considered.

^ This guy got it, all of this is just rhetoric, we all know the RAI and we will play it; but when time and resources allow it we also want our matching and clear RAW; and this is the way.

We have discussed about a lot of things here. I want to help to improve the rules for the sake of better rules, but the point about the new player stands; this interaction is niche but could happen in the very first game of a player (2 new players, Player A in active turn uses Expel sucessfuly but then fail to damage the TAG and the pilot. Player B starts his turn with the 2 fully operative profiles in the table)

Yeah, for white hatting permission is usually required because you are breaking the law, here we are just discussing rules; this is feedback not a potential crime. And the amount of players getting this wrong this is not the point; the point is that the RAI not match the RAW, and also this issue could be solved adding/changing 3 just lines in the whole rulebook.

I know this won’t get a hot fix, it’s not even needed because everyone know the RAI, but in the next edition/if the live rulebook is implemented if this is not calling out this mechanic could continue unchanged.

 

While I admire the enthusiasm for longer and more detailed rules, experience tells me that page long detailed rules are not that much appreciated even with free PDF we get complains for "too many rules" sure there is a percentage of the player base who would not mind the rules been 400 pages (random number) and be super detailed with tons of examples for weird interactions but to be frank it is not the majority by far.

Now, again, for the TAG, the TAG is the trooper, the pilot is an alternative profile for the TAG, the pilot does not generate an order since the TAG is the order generating trooper,mind you for those that said TAG does nothing when the pilot is out, the TAG does do something, it generates the order for the order reserve, the pilot does not generate their own order, hence why they loose it when the TAG enters unconscious state.

I understand it may be counter intuitive especially since people by default expect the pilot and not the machine to be the order generating model, but it is what it is.

 

So a rule that says "these are two alternative profiles for the same model" and "to change from A to B and viceversa do this" is not supported by the rules?

Please, go on...

 

As has been pointed out many times. The manned and pilot rules allow the use of alternate profiles.

 

The expel rule is there to point out that the pilot still generates orders since the TAG is still alive, in any case the pilot is an alternative profile and has rules that dictate that the order they have is tied to the TAG model not the pilot model.

 

Exactly. What’s the old saw about a horse and water?

 

Let's sum up this thread :
the correct answer has been given page 1 on the second answer (TAG and pilot = 2 profile of the same unit so one order) => Thanks @Diphoration

A very nice summary has been written page 2 (and is perfectly correct both regarding RAW and RAI)

Then we have 4 pages of discussion, not about what the rules means but on how they can be wrongly understood if someone work hard enough (I'm pretty sure there is a name for that)

Could we close this now ?

If people want to discuss how they don't like the way the rules are written, please open an independant topic and stop polluting rules questions with it.

 

The Pilot and Remote Pilot rules need a rewrite. The players know that, and I can confirm that CB know that. It's not going to happen in the immediate future.

In the mean time,

 

Minor corrections:
1) A TAG is a model with two distinct alternative profiles. They can be both on table, but you will always activate just one of them.
2) A TAG profile generates 1 Order. Pilot profiles don't generate Orders at all, whether they are in the TAG or Dismounted.
3) As it's the TAG that generates Orders, it's the Unconscious state (or other Null state) of the TAG that matters. (EDIT - for Order generation.)

 

@A Mão Esquerda first you come yourself with the argument about how important it is how you deliver something and afterwards when its fits your opinion you suddenly like posts like this:

Most hypocritcal shit i've seen someone do in a long time.


Have fun insulting each other folks.

 

Yep, I have something with rules; I’d take that as a compliment XDD
I understand that the playerbase is very heterogeneous and forge “a rulebook to appease them all” is not easy. I've some ideas but this thread isn't the right place to name them.

Lol, of course you know the RAI. Just check how every other model works; there isn't a single model in this game that generate 2 regular orders, and it's clear that this is caused for some obvious issues in the wording. You also have the responses from ijw and Psychoticstorm pointing the right direction. The RAI it's not the issue here.
Just an advice. Discussing the RAW/RAI going full RAW and ignoring everything else while engaging with users and mods is the recipe for disaster. If you want your feedback heard, that's the wrong strategy; you are making an awful job getting people to your side!

@Diphoration summariced it pretty well, but the answer nº1, for some reason ignored, also gave the right answer.

This topic was open to discuss how this particular issue works from a RAW perspective. The RAI is pretty clear, I acknowledge it (again, check the first response).

I'm interested in discussing this from a RAW perspective, but I just can't with so much noise in this thread; so please (and this goes with no animosity), any user that is not interested in that, please just stop posting here. I know that you know how this work, I don't need to hear again that the pilot doesn't generate any order, I know it. Just let me have my rethoric conversation about RAW and of course join in it if you want.

 

Think about how frequently there are issues with stuff because the order sequence isn't clearly defined, or the recent debate about when in the deployment phase you can form fireteams. The regular rules are fine for 90% of cases/games, but there are some things that are just super wonky in nature (Holoecho state, for example, has all sorts of interactions that people would be more comfortable with if they were spelled out, such as Holoing a Hacker as a non-hacker and getting unopposed rolls) or are rules overload when written down and could be separated out into "here's the gist so you can understand this" and "here's all the deep stuff and interactions this needs to sort out" such as G:Remote Presence.

The problem is when people have conflicting opinions about the RAI -- and I'll say it again, I've been told many times that for some reason I'm less qualified to interpret the RAI than any other random dude on the forum who isn't associated with CB. Ideally though, the RAW would be clean and clear enough that there never needs to be a debate about the RAI -- and I personally don't feel this is asking too much. The game is 90-95% of the way there, we just need to fix the last 5-10% (which is the hardest, of course.)