1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hemos actualizado nuestra Política de Privacidad acorde con la nueva RGPD. +Info // We've updated our Privacy Policy to comply with the GDPR. +Info
    Dismiss Notice

When do Pilots and their TAG both generate an Order token?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Ginrei, Jun 23, 2019.

Tags:
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2017
    Messages:
    356
    Likes Received:
    536
    Uh, I am criticising people's arguments, politely. You're just trolling now, I feel, so I'm going to decline to engage you further.
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  2. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,385
    Likes Received:
    1,892
    No, I am referring to the difference between "your argument is incorrect" and "you are incorrect." It is preferable to stick with the first one for reasons I shouldn't have to explain here. (Or calling "derp" on someone else's post.)
     
    #82 meikyoushisui, Jun 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
  3. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2017
    Messages:
    356
    Likes Received:
    536
    I'm sorry if your feelings were hurt by my saying you were incorrect when I meant that your conclusion was incorrect, your reasoning was incorrect and your motivation suspect.

    Thanks for patronising me, but I reject your assertion of preferability, especially given the nature of forum back & forth posts and the time constraint under which the conversation operates.

    You have yet to offer evidence that you are not, in fact, trolling. In the eventuality that you aren't; Troopers generate orders of the type indicated by their Training Characteristic. Not all models are Troopers. Not all profiles are unique Troopers as Troopers may have multiple profiles. Having a Training Characteristic icon on a profile does not indicate that the profile is a Trooper.
    ICON =/= ORDER
     
    #83 Dragonstriker, Jun 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
    chromedog and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  4. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,385
    Likes Received:
    1,892
    Alright, what if I say back that I can only believe you're trolling because when given the opportunity to choose to be more polite, you choose not to? It costs you literally nothing.

    If that's the level of discourse you want to have ("everyone who disagrees with me is just a troll arguing in bad faith!") then you won't get it from me. I'll show myself out. I'm not going to waste any more of my time on you, you have your mind set on your interpretation of the rules that actually isn't supported by the way they are written, and if that's good enough for you, I don't actually see any purpose in your participation here, except to troll me.
     
  5. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2017
    Messages:
    356
    Likes Received:
    536
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  6. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2017
    Messages:
    356
    Likes Received:
    536
    Politeness has its limitations and can often hinder communication.
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  7. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,385
    Likes Received:
    1,892
    Seriously? How does addressing someone's argument rather than their person hinder your ability to refute an argument?

    I can't interpret that as anything besides trolling.
     
    ChoTimberwolf likes this.
  8. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2017
    Messages:
    356
    Likes Received:
    536
    Really?
    Stop getting so hung up on policing my perceived tone, stop being aggrieved that I said you were incorrect; start reading the refutations of your arguments, or better yet, start making correct arguments.
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  9. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,385
    Likes Received:
    1,892
    After you ;)

    In either case, we've stayed far from the original point, which is that the rules for order generation between pilots and TAGs are unclear.
     
  10. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    427
    I was referring to the icon indicating their training. If that's not how orders are counted... how are they counted?

    Regular Orders
    For each Regular troop deployed on the table that is not in a Null state (Unconscious, Dead, Sepsitorized...), the Active Player adds one Regular Order Marker (REGULAR) to his Order Pool.

    Training: Regular
    This trooper received regular military training, and can be expected to follow instructions, maintain discipline under enemy fire, work in a team and coordinate with his comrades.

    Effects
    • Regular troopers add their Orders to their Order Pool, where they can be used by any troopers in the same Combat Group to take actions.
    What is the definition of a regular troop?
    • Trooper. Game element with a Troop Profile, which belongs to the Army List of any player, capable of spending Orders as well as declaring and receiving Attacks.
    Ok, what's a Troop Profile?

    [​IMG]

    What am I missing?
     
    Ogid, ChoTimberwolf and meikyoushisui like this.
  11. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2017
    Messages:
    356
    Likes Received:
    536
    I don't have the motivation to go through this again. Enjoy your games.
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
  12. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    427
    I answered your question. Show me the same courtesy and answer mine please.
     
    meikyoushisui likes this.
  13. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,893
    Likes Received:
    1,913
    Save for the fact that, absent bad faith, they aren’t...
     
    Dragonstriker likes this.
  14. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,893
    Likes Received:
    1,913
    Well, you tried... willful misunderstanding is willful, after all.
     
    Dragonstriker likes this.
  15. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    1,385
    Likes Received:
    1,892
    You're right, it is very weird that people would continue to defend the rules when presented with proof of their holes.
     
    Ginrei and Ogid like this.
  16. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2017
    Messages:
    356
    Likes Received:
    536
    @Ginrei Screen Shot 2019-06-25 at 1.59.09 pm.png
    Pretty definitive, no?
    3 profiles, all have the Regular Training icon.
    1 Order. 3 models. 1 Trooper.
    Or will you try to assert that Infinity Army is fundamentally wrong in how it allocates Troopers to Combat Groups?
     
  17. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    487
    Likes Received:
    396
    Yeah the army builder tells us how many orders are generated. Is it correct to assume now that the army builder is needed to play the game because its the only way to really know what are troopers? And hoping that it doesn't have a bug and is actually correct? In which way can I check if a unit is a trooper so that I know if they generate orders?

    I know how to play the game, I am neither trying to cheat nor to troll. I simply am curious how it works and to understand it. This whole discussion here is for me pretty rhetorical and probably won't have any effect to me playing the game.
     
    Ginrei and Ogid like this.
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,438
    Likes Received:
    7,996
    Because it was brought up as an argument that it is [jimsterling]about those poor poor new players[/jimsterling] and you liked that post, so even though I wasn't addressing to your argument you at least partially agreed to it.

    White Hatting requires the receiving party to be receptive and supportive of it, otherwise the practices used by white hats tends to end up being blackmail, depending a bit on the vulnerability. In this case, given the debate climate, you're really trying to break down the integrity of the rules (not the structural integrity, but the integrity that generates trust among players) since it's literally unheard of for people to try and exploit this rule.
    You're also barking up the wrong tree simply because it is unheard of for people to get this rule wrong and as such it's so far down the priority list to patch that it doesn't actually matter.
     
    A Mão Esquerda and chromedog like this.
  19. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2017
    Messages:
    487
    Likes Received:
    396
    Also if the difference between a unit generating an order or not generating one is that they are a trooper does that mean that all the rules that refer to troopers don't affect servants and similiar units? (I am still just curious I would never rule that way in an actual game)
    For example jump:
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Jump
    Troopers cannot benefit from Partial Cover MODs during an Order in which they declared Jump.

    it refers mostly to the user till that bullet point so does that mean servants can jump because that just refers to the user but it can also benefit from partial cover mods because that bullet point only refers to troopers?

    EDIT:
    Found my answer myself:
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/G:_Servant#Ghost:_Servant
    Servants are also troopers:
    Only troopers possessing the Doctor (any Level) or Engineer Special Skills can enlist G: Servant troopers in their Army List.

    EDIT 2:
    So every unit is a trooper but some troopers got special rules that stop them from generating orders like Servant:
    G: Servant troopers don't provide Orders to the Order Pool, and cannot receive Orders from their Order Pool.

    That means if a trooper doesn't have any kind if rule restriction it should generate its own orders. The kind of order is defined in what kind of training they have regular or irregular.

    This is my understanding of the rules as I read them.

    So RAW is my understanding that the pilot of a concious trooper should generate its own order. RAI of course thats not the case and I won't play it that way (as a tohaa player I wouldn't gain any benefit :P )
     
    #99 ChoTimberwolf, Jun 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
    Ginrei and Ogid like this.
  20. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    1,618
    Likes Received:
    1,722
    Do you ever tried to read the Pilot rule? http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Pilot

    PILOT AUTOMATIC SKILL
    Obligatory.
    REQUIREMENTS
    • This Special Skill activates only when the user deploys on the game table.
    EFFECTS
    • This Special Skill allows the user to use an alternative Troop Profile.
    • This Pilot Troop Profile is usable only after the trooper declares a Move Short Skill and specifies he will use it to Dismount his Manned TAG or Vehicle.
    • The Pilot Troop Profile may also activate as a result of a successful enemy Hacking Program with that Effect.
    • The Pilot of an Unconscious Vehicle or TAG generates no Orders for himself or for his Order Pool.
    • The Pilot of an Unconscious Vehicle or TAG is not considered either as a survivor or a casualty for Victory Points, Retreat! or any other purposes.

    What does the red line means? That you cannot have both profiles (TAG and Pilot) active at the same time, because they are ALTERNATIVE. When you use the Pilot, the TAG become a (destroyable) statue in the middle of the field.

    But it is still the same "model" regarding all aspects of the game (Order, ARO, states and so on)
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.