A Domaru can decide to tank the hit and eat that CC WB for breakfast, though. Only the DA or EXP CCWs are a risk for the Domaru, while anything getting into CC with a Domaru is at risk. If it has 2W, the EM will make it a statue, while if it only has 1W the Shock will make it dead. Honestly, Domaru are probably the scariest unit in the game right now. The only time they can't kill you back is outside 24".
The point is SP units are almost always way better off entering a firefight (thanks to their mods mainly due to ODD) than entering an almost always risky close combat (due to low burst in CC). There must be a reason why I love my Galwegians, but sometimes I just forget exactly why.
One reason I like units like Oniwaban, Saito, etc. over the samurai is because the enemy has to work harder to anticipate their threat. When you have Hidden Deployment, the enemy just can't know for certain where the threat is coming from. If my opponent deploys first, and I see his Heavy Infantry or other major threat, it's not too tough to anticipate the flow of the opening turns. If your target comes into the midfield, you may only be one or two Orders away from initiating CC with them, and often times this is more Order efficient and more statistically dominant than maneuvering to shoot with anything in the JSA arsenal. Domaru shoot okay, but they're the Heavy Infantry equivalent of BS10 militia when you compare them to other HI. Their ranged weapons are costly and not particularly devastating, but they'll do fine at chewing up light and medium opposition. Tanko and Oniwaban pack ranged weapons that take down big game.
Honestly, reading up on the discussion here... JSA sounds like a pretty interesting faction to get into for me now. Mostly because I have a very bad habit of marching closer to the enemy because... reasons? Also, just as an aside, it feels like JSA could probably be very open about it's Lieutenants due to relatively ample access to CoC in the Kempeitai. Granted, some of the more ''prime'' Lt choices probably cost more SWC ( The TAG, Oniwabans/Shinobu. Kuroshi seems like a rather amazing 0 SWC Lt though. ). That, and I find it interesting how JSA has a rather sizeable selection of Impetous troops, but none of them are Extremely Impetous ( Or, well, Yojimbo is. But I'm not sure how much a mercenary really counts as one of their ''troops''. ).
You should go look at how CC works out between a unit with CC23 and MA3 and a unit with CC16 or below. CC creates some of the most skewed outcomes in the game when applied correctly.
Dude, you should go look at how badly I roll dice! ;-) Seriously crits and a bad roll of die (e. g. I roll below 5...) can easily put me in trouble. When shooting I roll far more (3-4-5) dice and extremely bad dice rolls become far less likely. It is not the expected outcome that's bothering me but the relative high chance of tail events. Taking your example I roll one die and get 5. The chances of rolling 5 or below are roughly 25% according to magicians, wizards, whiches and folks like them. (My experience: one-in-three at least. Dude, I am really bad at rolling dice!) Now after rolling 5 my opponent in your example (assuming a CC of 13) will have 25% chance of killig my trooper. (Rolling 6, 7, 8, 9 and crit 10.) Multiplying the chances (0.25*0.25=0.0625) it turns out there is a 6.25% the opposing trooper will kill (at least wound in cae of NWI and the like) my trooper - in a very, very skewed outcome! I am not saying this 6.25% chance is high but it is not insignificant. Firing a B4 gun (like a Spitfire or a Rifle in a fireteam) the chances of rolling all four dice 5 or below is roughly 0.4%. Thanks to ODD and cover my opponent's chances firing the gun are not better than hitting back in CC... Of course a crit on behalf of my opponent will ruin my day, but my chances of rolling at least one crit on four dice is far better than my opponent's rolling one die. (Just kidding. I almost never roll crits.)
In your example you aren't taking into account that 5 is +6 for cc 23+3. Your opponent would have to crit you if you rolled a 5. You also would crit on 14+ which can actually DECREASE the chance of extreme dice rolling because it decreases the 5%~ chance you'll be critted dead. (Down to about 3%)
Right, even if you roll a 1, factors like Martial Arts, Surprise Attack, and CC values above 20 often mean you'll still win the F2F easily. If an Oniwaban surprise attacks a CC13 model, the Oniwaban adds +7 (CC24, Martial Arts Level 3) and the CC13 model gets hit with a -9 (-6 from Surprise Attack, -3 from Martial Arts Level 3.) So even if the Oniwaban rolls a 1, he still wins unless his opponent rolls a Crit. This is one reason why Saito is so good by the way... Oniwaban-level stats, but he packs that EXP CCW to detonate 1-Wound targets to ensure he's making the most of that critical Surprise Attack round. You can also go MA4 for double attack. Generally speaking the risk is slightly higher there (often by just a few percentage points) but the offensive output is usually greatly increased if you don't believe your dice are lucky enough to fish for Crits with MA3.
At cc 20 and lower its pretty random and scary, I agree. Even B2 doesn't help me feel comfortable about it. Cc 21 and above and MA then the ability to control the dice ranges and extra large chances to crit create a quick swing into a "sure thing". Every +1 is a 5% chance improvent to crit AND eliminates another 5%~ chance your opponent can even hit you. The reason cc feels more luck dependent is almost every unit has a cc higher than normal ( weakest rated at 12s). This creates a much smaller "nothing happens" chance. Most shoot out calculations have about a 20% chance everyone misses. In cc that only happens if the worst cc people on 2 teams fought. So when a cc pro gets into melee then >95% rolls is going to see some kind of hit.
And that's the reason why I (playing SP) feel CC is pretty dicey whereas shooting troopers is the way to go. (That doesn't go for the monster people keep calling Achilleus; but goes for Machaon and the like.) JSA however can expoit the extremely high CC stats and abilities. I think we can call this the strenght of JSA. PS Thank you all for educating me on the proper use of CC monsters! Will use it when facing JSA! ;-)
CC is a lot more useful than you people give it credit for these days. The biggest mistake is to reduce it's impact down to kill power only. Not to mislead anyone it is important to mention that killing is a rather big part of the value, especially for JSA. But even they won't be able to build a gameplan around CC, instead CC is going to supplement a proper gameplan that allows for opportunistic CC engagement to solve problems. Purely defensive value of CC isn't easy to spot and has a lot to do with basic stats and CC Skills. MA gives you Stealth which helps not get Hacked or shot occasionally. CC and MA levels also serve as protection against CC and MA levels. PH gives you double value as defensive and offensive stat. The defense is also much better than just merely better dodging, successful Engage rolls are scary stuff. One success here has a lot more impact than a Dodge. TO for our CC troops also gets added value. BS11 with TO is still a capable gunner, but the added MOD for Surprise Attack on top of MA3+ is enough to make Achilles sweat. At B2 from extra bodies or MA4 CC starts to outpace anything else in the game in terms of damage output and reliability. That Avatar doesn't look so scary anymore if you managed to get a Helperbot in BTB with a Ninja nearby. JSA doesn't have much G:Sync, but they do have Koalas. They trigger AROs so can be used to force an ARO and MOV-MOV their Controller into BTB with something unopposed.
Yes, but you still need to have a plan for getting into CC. JSA (and to a lesser extent, vanilla YJ and Imperial Service) can use CC as a backstop. "Well, failed to shoot him dead, he's still coming. I'm going to have to do this the hard way and CC him." You can also pin someone in place with CC, but I don't recommend that until you are really good at Infinity. Lots of people complain about paying for the CC stat on a Ninja sniper, when they don't realize that it makes it that much harder to remove said Ninja Sniper. You can't just send a CC monster to get the sniper, because the sniper *is* a CC monster. It reduces the pool of models you can use for the job, and often reduces all the way down to "I don't have a tool to kill that sniper without the tool also dying."
JSA is great on paper, especially Oniwabans.... and then you roll 4 out of 6 rolls (2 oniwaban infiltrating over 3 games) over 16... then you let a series of long sighs....
Had a game yesterday that highlighted some good JSA strengths. Versus a pretty standard Steel Phalanx list in Supremacy, helmed by a veteran player: Enomotarchos Team with Phoenix, Officer, 2 Chain Rifles Enomotarchos Team with Eudoros, Machaon, 2 Chain Rifles They come blitzing up to midfield, fan out their templates to guard v TO Infiltrators, and hang out to start scoring Quadrants. They stay well hidden, due to MSV2 Kempetai on my side, so outshooting them isn't really an option. But if I don't tackle them, they'll storm my DZ next turn and end the game. So all of this combat will need to happen at short range. So Ryuken-9 with mines blitzes one team, Shock Ammo aplenty, and takes out Eudoros. I maneuver hard to threaten the survivors with Kempetai MSV2 rifle, prompting them to throw Eclipse to cover themselves. Saito reveals in their midst and, using their own smoke for cover, chops down all three survivors over 2 turns, including ending his active turn b2b with Machaon, who can't get free and doesn't want to risk wasting Orders just to kill himself in his own turn. Repeat the process for the other team. Pick on one link member until 6th Sense is gone. Yojimbo laying smoke in their midst from 24 inches out. Oniwaban reveals to Surprise Attack Phoenix for the CC kill, repeats for another Myrm. In both cases, my TO Infiltrator combatants were already deployed within 1 Order's Movement of their targets. It isn't hard to figure out where the hotspots of a game will be, and deploy your units there waiting to pounce. This is a JSA specialty. This is anecdotal, but the aforementioned toolbox of assets can't really be replicated by another force (or at least not with the same reliability.) Hemming the opponent in with the threat of mines and shock SMGs, threatening them with great MSV2 platforms, then walking through multiple targets who are all CC21+ with MA3 is not something that can be replicated. With the right coordination, you can tackle one of the game's most defensively-minded, hardest-to-crack teams in close combat with probable odds of success.
Sure thing. A lot of my lists look like this, though sometimes I drop the Ninja KHD for other choices. Dropping the Ninja KHD and missile to get a Keiaotsu hacker and Rui Shi is nice. Japanese Secessionist Army ────────────────────────────────────────────────── GROUP 1 10 SAITO TOGAN (Specialist Operative) Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW, Knife. (0 | 40) NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29) RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 24) KEMPEI (Multispectral Visor L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (1 | 25) KEISOTSU HMG / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 17) KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14) KEISOTSU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9) WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16) GROUP 2 5 1 1 ONIWABAN Submachine Gun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (0 | 37) YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21) RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 24) CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8) KEISOTSU Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 9) 5.5 SWC | 300 Points Open in Infinity Army
Thank you. Based on what you described I didn’t think you’d have room for a Haris in there but was curious to see if you squeezed one in. I assume you leave the LT and a decoy out of the core unless you need to replenish the link. Do you find that the Oniwaban and Yojimbo compete for orders in group 2?
