I feel like the new link team options are making it hard to include Shikami. A HI Domaru/Tanko Core Link is really expensive and at 45 points the Shikami is hard to justify with all the other things you want in your list. Domaru can also have a specialist now, which makes the situation even worse, as you've mentioned already. With a Keisotsu/Kempaitai core, however, I feel like I usually can bring most of the shiny toys that make JSA stand out for me (including the Shikami). In general, I feel like the biggest draw of the Shikami is his durability coupled with his mobility. If you have lots of terrain and verticality on your board, so he can make use of his CQB equipment, he's a blast to play. If you have a lot of open spaces and long firelanes, he's not worth the points imo.
You're thinking about him all wrong if this is what you're getting held up on. The combi is just a way for him to oppose dice and close a gap. He's essentially gritting on 14s AP+DA DMG 14 in CC. This is where he shines. Combi profile is better - the contender is essentially a lack luster ARO weapon. I would rather shoot the Assault pistol in active turn in the 0-16 range band.
There's plenty of situations where the Shikami shines, but I continually ask myself if it's worth the Orders to do it. With enough Orders, I'm confident they can take apart anything, simply by using their maneuverability and offensive tools to create the most statistically advantageous situation for themselves. But is it worth it, over simply taking Saito and TO-camo or smoke walking him into a threat using far less Orders? That's the question that I continue to struggle with. The terrain dependency too. As a tournament guy, I rarely dictate the terms of the terrain I play on. I'm rarely playing on a table of my own making or setup. As a result, I need units and lists that can function well regardless of those kinds of factors, and that makes it really hard to justify a terrain-dependent unit like the Shikami in a take-all-comers ITS format.
To put a finer point on others have said: Shikami really highlight a gameplay and table factor in how we build. If you're playing a tourney on random terrain, Togan is probably a better pick for the points. However Infinity started as a game where you knew the mission and terrain, and tailored your lists to them. For that kind of play, or if you -know- you're playing on something cool like an oil-derrick table or a table with a bunch of skyscrapers, it's really good. Seems like playstyle and mission are the determinants here- and I'm really glad that CB still build armies to be able to handle that kind of play as much as the fairly homogenous setting of ITS.
And that's a good question to ask. For me, the most important advantage of the shikami would be durability. He can take a mine or a template that Saito can not. He can walk into an ARO and probably survive it, which Saito might not. He can use a different approach altogether to not provoke either of those situations in the first place, which Saito might not. Saito, of course, has other significant advantages like regular smoke, infiltration and hidden deployment, but they might not always work out in your favour. As far as orders go, Saito is probably more efficient, but he is also more vulnerable under certain circumstances. I can see how Saito seems like the more attractive choice for people concerned with efficiency, but Shikami offer different advantages at the cost of being more order intensive.
For me Saito and the Shikami perform two separate roles with some overlap. For me, Saito usually rushes the back field and tries to either smoke out ARO pieces or smash them outright while trying to eliminate any cheerleaders or anyone of value forward deployed. hitting the deployment zone with Saito often forces the opponent to turn around a fight backwards. The shikami practically lives in the mid field where he can eliminate skirmishers or anyone left standing around. While a more dense board sees more use out of his skills - He is not entirely limited by it. I can near guarantee you will be playing with buildings, which he can climb and go prone on top of - making him virtually untouchable without an extreme amount of orders on your opponents turn while also creating this threat bubble where your opponent is afraid to leave a model within 16 inches of him.
Until he gets haaaaaaacked. Really though, not hating on the Shikami. I just find that he requires so many Orders to perform a task of limited function. The extra Wound he gets as a HI, which is amazing for surviving certain threats, also makes him extremely vulnerable to other threats. Since JSA opponents are hungrily looking for things to Hack whenever they see a JSA player deploy, the Shikami has to be careful that he maximizes Stealth or takes takes the scenic route to avoid Repeaters. All totally doable, but potentially requires even more Orders just to get the Shikami into a position where he's relevant to the game. Still, I have an event coming up where I have both Supremacy and Looting & Sabotage in the scenario lineup, and I may need to use the same list for both. I might try both a Shikami and Saito, since they both have the useful feature of being Specialists with hard-hitting anti materiel. I'll have to experiment with it a bit.
Most hackers can't actually do anything worthwhile to him, outside of assault, which is rather rare these days. With stealth and Climbing+ and Super jump, he can waltz right through repeaters and hackers ZOC with impunity - as climbing and jumping are now short skills and don't break stealth. I think he's a powerhouse in something like Supremacy, where he can easily get into whatever zone he needs to
I guess that depends on how we qualify the definition of "most Hackers"... Standard devices, HD+ and Assault can all Immobilize HI, and encountering at least one of those is pretty common. Even the Standard Device with Gotcha are a big threat to something that's only BTS3, plus these devices are often on linked Linetroopers who ignore that Stealth with SSL2. Obviously too, Stealth doesn't help if it's your opponent's turn. Bearing all that in mind, the Shikami's a pretty ideal target for anyone with infowar capability; since he's hard to shoot and impossible to pin down with conventional defenses, he's an ideal target for a player with decent repeater network. There are more Pitchers in the game than there have ever been as well, and quite a few upcoming Sectorials (Tunguska, Vedic) promise to have amazing Hacking coverage as well. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw things swing back in the direction of Infowar. DBS in particular is appalling in terms of how many Pitchers that can saturate the field with, and that 17-point AHD Brawler indicates to me that CB recognizes that AHDs are overpriced and are finding ways to remedy that issue. It actually ties to a larger issue: I think JSA Heavy Infantry is going to be confronted with a lot of challenges with infowar in general, if players start finding ways to leverage the strengths of good Hacking coverage while deterring/avoiding enemy KHDs. It's a challenging balance to achieve, but it has the potential to really shake up how the game is played right now. Just to reiterate, none of this is meant to deter players from using the Shikami. But I do run into specific problems when fielding him, and my goal here is to provoke some dialog to hear what other player's think.
There is a reason YJ vanilla took Keisotsu hacker, and I imagine most JSA lists that feature HI will do the same. Fairy dust is pretty swell.
Don't worry, you didn't come off as demeaning or anything of the sort :) As for JSA being threatened by an increasingly powerful infowar meta, that is an interesting point to consider. I'm pretty confident that JSA does have some great tools to counteract a hacker heavy opponent, with two amazing KHD options in the Ninja and the Aragoto.
While standard HDs are pretty common - IMM1 is rarely a big deal. While some armies can bring a sizable amount of repeaters/pitchers to the table, JSA has access to some decent KHDs. That linked grunt probably won't stand a chance against most KHD programs. The assault hacker is almost counter intuitive to combatting the shikami, as they are most often on infiltrators. There are very few cases where an assault hacker hangs out in your deployment zone utilizing a repeater network. Even then - at best the only thing different they can do differently than a standard device is B1 isolation. which granted, hurts the shikami along with a lot of other HI. I wouldn't consider hacking as a hard counter to the Shikami, chances are if he's being hacked it's on his reactive turn. this means all special ammo and multi burst IMM-1 programs are mostly useless because they only last the turn, and ideally he should be left somewhere where he can't be easily shot at. There are a lot of other, more effective ways to deal with him. To be honest, outside of GADGET programs, KHDs, and against TAGs, Hackers are usually more valuable in ARO with repeaters as they stifle advances and gum up orders. JSA can largely ignore this as most of their hacking devices and HI have stealth. I'm not saying the shikami and most JSA HI are invincible. They have armor that barely constitutes HI.
First things first the is Shikami lacking in all aspects of his Profile. Gunnery - lacking for the pricetag CC - lacking in JSA for the pricetag Mobility - Climbing Plus and Superjump, gets offset a lot by not having Infiltration/Forward Deployment and being stuck with 4-4. Compared to the fabulous five of verticality (Sphinx, Su Jian, Tik, Seraph & Tarik) - lacking. Straight durability - lacking for the pricetag The Duo is one of the most worthless pointsinks I can think of. He sucks at fighting Camo Markers, no DTW, no Mines, no MSV, no Shotgun to blast them through other models. Okay that didn't sound so great. Lets see if he is redeemable. He is a very rare case of a full package. Workable gunner, workable CC guy and good Specialist. A Shikami doesn't scream "fuel me with Orders and go ham right away" like an Oniwaban, Yojimbo, Oyoroi or Domaru Link and leaves a lot of space to include other stuff to do work early. That's usually something I'd value for a Combat Lt like Sun Tse or Joan. The role of a no-SWC-Weapon 2nd wave/counter Attack piece isn't important to fill but useful to have. JSA get's cheap as dirt expendable turn 1 options. Yojimbo, Rui Shi, Aragoto Spitfire, Ryouken ODD. They also get mid range fragile but deadly TO Infiltrators to clear a path through a hard roadblock. Shinobu/Saito/Oni. Combine those two and you have a striker to remove/circumvent something like a TAG, Linked ML as well as a Assault piece that will be free to engage cheerleaders. All of those suffer from low durability and won't last long against a dedicated opponent in a close game. But most of the time you'll tuck them away behind a corner in the midfield where someone will have to come and get them, which allows to set up a relatively close range Troop like a Shikami to start engaging opponents despite starting from the DZ. In fact he'll be completely untouchable there, a perfectly safe contingency plan for a Turn 2 where starting form your DZ means starting a lot closer to engagements. There is way too much stuff to deal with against JSA, more of a threat and easier to reach than the Shikami on a roof. Shikami in general are not Order efficient, but they're Order efficient to protect at the end of a turn. You'll not find a lot of stuff that can naturally end their turn Prone on a roof without spending additional Orders to get there. Neither is there much stuff that can come to your roof and fight you. Kinematika L2 giving you a PH14, 4" Engage together with an ODD is massive here. If you get hacked on that roof, you'll probably Reset while something tries to climb up to you. AHDs really aren't that common anymore, there still is the Ninja KHD to deal with that anyway. For those same reasons he makes a supreme Data Tracker. He doesn't die to a stray Spec Fire hit, his position makes him not worth hacking or killing and he can easily stay alive and reach any position required late in the game when the ARO options go way down. I never was a fan of him, but I'd try to fit one in for a List 2 in Data Tracker reliant missions. Oh and btw, imho always take the Combi, he's good enough up close with CC. SF and a +3 Rangeband in 8-16 is how that guy checks all the boxes. Half the army can already take care of or Smoke past TR Bots anyway, spending Orders on Nimbus is a subpar option in a Sectorial stacked with first class ones.
I agree with your reasonings here - although I would spend a few orders on the Shikami moving him into an ideal position the turn before he goes full on Rambo. I disagree with some of your summaries at the beginning of your post. I think he's well costed for the price tag. Once again, his BS and guns are not for killing, but rather to oppose an opponent with dice. it doesn't matter if he's hitting on 13s, 12s, or 9s, when your opponent is throwing back a single dice on a 6. in addition to the benefit of suppressive. His CC capability is pretty standard for JSA, which means he can beat pretty much anything. I agree he shines when he's a data tracker. and also the duo is a waste of time, I don't really know of anyone who would even consider taking that.
To be fair, Gotcha doesn't last one player Turn... It lasts until "the end of the following Player Turn after the declaration of the program", which means a Shikami who gets slapped by Gotcha in the enemy turn is going to start his Turn still in Imm-1. So you either need to Reset out of it (annoying) or get your KHD in place to free up the Shikami (doable, but still annoying... It means your opponent has probably drained you of important Orders to free up the Shikami, which fuels the notion that the Shikami's costing more Orders than he's redeeming through his role on the table.) And Stealth is definitely great, but it's a bad player who sets up a Repeater network in an area where an opponent can just Stealth past it with zero consequences. The best Repeater placement is in areas where conflict is bound to occur, where an opponent can't possibly MOV-MOV with impunity to preserve Stealth. The best Repeater networks are set up in tandem with SSL2 units to ignore Stealth, deployable/perimeter weapons to force hits/Dodges, direct AROs (Suppressive Fire, TR, whatever) to force action, etc. That's the kind of competitive play I'm talking about, where rule-vs-rule comparisons in a vacuum don't really occur, because opposing players have a good understanding of how to interlace the rule interactions so one rule doesn't simply negate another.
Can you please elaborate on how SSL2 interacts with stealth in the case of hackers and repeaters? As long as the Shikami is not attacking the hacker in a link specifically, SSL2 does not come into play at all, does it?
Obviously all of this is theory - and the only way to see how well a model performs is at your local game club. Even that is dependent on local meta, who you're playing, table and mission. That being said - stealth still has great advantages over repeaters. It can allow you to get into a position to safely shoot it. You can use super jump to possibly see the hacker who is using the repeater and you can oppose him, You can use stealth to get into an ideal position and use another trooper to destroy the repeater, ect. Sixth Sense ignores stealth. simply treat the stealth unit as not having stealth for the purposes of AROs with the SSL2 trooper. If he's a hacker he can hack through a repeater normally.
Technically it's the other way around, not that it makes any difference, Stealth doesn't work against models with 6th Sense: http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Stealth This Special Skill is not effective against troopers with the Sixth Sense Special Skill
@barakiel a lot of your problems with the shikami (other than terrain dependancy) I had with Geckos for a while, but I found their niche. If the Shikami is useful people need to find the situations that call for it and not try to force it in, for example, an alpha striking role. My problem with Saito is that a lot of objectives can't be switched on then ignored. Maybe most objectives. And of course, some units don't work for a current tournament scene. As long as everyone doesn't RP as a serious tournament player when most of us aren't that shouldn't make a guy get discounted in general. People get caught up thinking that tournament or high teir methods must just be the better way of doing things, but that's not the case in almost any games. e.g. in [fps] all the high teir players can spot mines so they're a waste of a slot, but in the bottom 90% of games they're still useful.
I don't know if more than a couple users here have interest in the "Skunkworks" fan army builder, but we would be happy to incorporate a patch for the Shikami, if you guys have a good one. In my experience fighting it, and 1 time army-swapping it, the Shikami seems to be a mobile CC superiority specialist, not a gunfighter. So I think SWC guns are out of the question. But―I don't own or play JSA, and my local guy quit JSA after the update, so I'll take anything into consideration. "Mild and subtle" is preferable to "drastic and awesome," the builder is more about putting together playable sectorials (Triumvirate, Invincible Army, Varuna, et al) from existing units, than creation or complete overhaul of profiles.
