1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

The definite N4 Comments, Suggestions, Ideas, wishlist's and Bugs that need fixing thread

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    3,560
    Likes Received:
    3,542
    Have you ever tried to right-click on a model you already selected in the list? A dropdown list appears, with all of the option for that trooper.
    upload_2021-12-3_11-56-15.png
    It's the method to change a model without deleting and adding it back again
     
  2. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2018
    Messages:
    1,089
    Likes Received:
    1,991
    Wow I did not know that thanks!
     
  3. Urist

    Urist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2021
    Messages:
    176
    Likes Received:
    279
    I don't know if someone reported it yet, but the Courtesy List doesn't have Reinforcement profiles for the Hafza to disguise as. So a Reinforcement Hafza has to disguise as a non-reinforcement Sekban, which shows its obviously a Hafza.
     
  4. Wizzy

    Wizzy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2018
    Messages:
    2,539
    Likes Received:
    5,799
    Urobros and Savnock like this.
  5. quaade

    quaade Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    60
    I would like an expansion of the hacking system, especially Trinity and Killer Hacking Devices.

    As I see it. right now hacking is more of a curiosity than anything to be really concerned about unless you happen to have a lot of REM and TAGs and to a lesser extent HI.

    Change the rules and makes it so that Trinity and other damaging abilities can affect everything with Str, REM, TAG, HI, and/or Hacking Device so hackers become a real threat on the battlefield for the intended purpose of which they were brought rather than the hacking device being a secondary ability to an irreparable state (the Dead state). Unless they had an "Unhackable" trait to throw Ariadna a bone.

    This change in the rules could easily be explained by using the damaging abilities on one of those targets to fry the electronic systems that those classifications rely on, instead of, as now merely frying the hacking device while connected to someone's brain.

    If Hacking devices have an extremely limited scope then Killer Hacking Devices by the extent are nearly completely useless since they can only really do one thing and having one leaves one vulnerable to a lot of things. The KHD is extremely limited in what programs it can use and never really gets any benefit to excuse its existence other than being an SWC cheap way to get a Hacking Device. What if it had a special rule whereby it ignored Firewall Modifiers? Killer Hacking Devices would be the equivalent of a Template Weapon against suitable targets and would be an actual killer instead of just a "meh" since everything a KHD can do an HD+ can do a lot better and you get a lot more utility to boot.
     
    burlesford and Wizzy like this.
  6. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,420
    Likes Received:
    5,380
    Hello,

    Please refer to N3 rules where "hackers" had all the programs in N4 (if weaker) aside from the White Noise and the Impersonation one, and Corvus decided to separate them.

    What you ask about already exists on N4, for the states IMM and ISO, by Hackers and Haker Plus. Supportware is reserved for EVO hackers, and the killing of enemy hackers is done by Killer Hacking Devices.
    Lore-wise, the usual in this kind of situations is that hackers have specific implants that allow them to use hacking programs in the battlefield, and anti-hacker programs target those specific implants only other hackers have.
     
  7. quaade

    quaade Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    60
    And even then they still lacked a purpose, and I'm thinking of a permanent solution. If you rid someone with bullets then they're out. if you hack them to immobilize them or isolate them then an Engineer can come around and fix it. Some can even fix it themselves by Resetting and the only way you can counter that is by always having someone in their LoS or ZoC, and the latter can be negated by an Engineer fixing them.

    Using a hacking device against a vulnerable target should be as effective as using a gun against them, the hacking device has a lot more caveats too if you want to use it while the gun just has the requirement of LoS. You need a lot of investment in additional support to come even close, meanwhile, even the most basic rifle is a potential threat against any conventional target in the game.

    It would also work as an instant balance mechanic against some of the more unrestrained things, I'm here thinking mostly of the Bakunin Uberfall Commando as it has nothing that really is a serious threat to it. "Gun" is as much a threat to the unit as to anyone else and can be countered by dropping an Eclipse Grenade, an action that also counters any MSV that might be in the vicinity.

    KHD used to have the rule that they negated Firewalls in N3 and it gave them a niche where they really were devices aimed at killing opposing hackers. N4 removed this with the removal of the Defensive Hacking Device and I think that KHD still having this rule in conjunction with Trinity affecting all hackable targets would make the KHD objectively better at something compared to every other Hacking Device that wins in every metric save cost.
     
    burlesford likes this.
  8. quaade

    quaade Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    60
    Another thing, AP ammunition should reduce the target to Arm 0 if it only has Arm 1 on the profile. It makes no sense that AP ammunition becomes increasingly potent the more armour a model has and is as efficient as normal ammunition against Arm 1.

    On a related note. BTS should be a gradual value like Arm is rather than being in increments of 3 as that creates the necessity for some strange profiles, like how a lot of weapons that affect BTS also have AP ammunition, or else they would be potentially rather ineffective.
     
    burlesford likes this.
  9. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,420
    Likes Received:
    5,380
    I don't understand why you think hackers had no purpose. First, normal hackers can really hit hard on Heavy Infantry, which tops BTS at 6 (there are non-TAG troops with BTS 9, but those tend to be MI/LI in hazmat equivalent roles, and they don't tend to have hackers among them for balance purposes).
    Second, a hacker can attack with a hacking program (Marked, ISO, IMM...) against those HI and TAGs regardless of Line of Sight, they only need to have them on their Hacking Area (which is the Zone of Control of the hacker, plus the Zone of Control of all of that player's repeaters of any kind on the table). Programs that can be used on ARO or as an attack.
    Third, if for some reason one of those HI attacks your dedicated hacker inside of the Hacking Area, the hacker can FtF that attack with a program, which ignores Mimetism levels and cover...

    Now for a definite purpose, EVO hackers can help Aerial Deployment troopers to arrive on point (+3 to PH roll), increase defense against enemy hackers for some units (Firewall +3 to all HI, etc...), make a remote ignore cover (but it has been nerfed since it no longer gives shock...) or increase its ARO burst, etc...
    Killer hackers can use IMP state to move around mines and other enemy deployables (or, being really inefficient, to protect some critical troops from Guided Missile Attacks), or kill other hackers.
    Normal hackers have been downgraded from apprentice to everything to "merely" debuffers, but don't ignore how much damage can make a mere Spotlight, not to mention the more programs a target has, the harder it is to Reset for them.
    And finally, Hacker Plus have a VERY important role with the White Noise program, since the changes to MSV1 in N4 mean everybody needs to bring some visor or suffer heavy penalties against Mimetism and smoke.

    And finally, all hackers are specialists capable of scoring in ITS matches. And all of them carry some guns, even those like Uhahu that "only" carry the sidearm (assault pistol).

    A gun does not ignore visual modifiers: can't shoot through a building, can't ignore Mimetism, and most certainly can't force your target to face several AROs at once, something that happens when a repeater is in range of the poor sod getting hacker by your whole list at once the moment they move.

    Were hackers as capable as you claim they need to be, I sincerely doubt anyone would bother with any other troop in the game. Of course, you can't have a master of all without paying a very steep price: look at Aleph's Asura H+ with Multi Rifle, that is the apex hacker (sans Aspects in the CA...) and she has a very definite role: do most of everything (she is melee capable, but unless you are whaking a TAG it's better to go with the B3 of her main gun, she has a BTS template, a MULTI rifle, H+ means she can Impersonate, is Lt capable -OSS only, sadly, since she was my Lt of choice even with a Combi rifle-, etc...), only for as much as a frigging Achilles, and more than some Tags...
     
    Stiopa and burlesford like this.
  10. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    679
    Likes Received:
    1,111
    Asawira and Sepulchre are BTS9. So 6 is not a cap for HI. But still I would say hackers are fine. Only change from N3 that I dislike is Spotlight ARO. And Nomads are my main faction.
     
    xagroth and burlesford like this.
  11. quaade

    quaade Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    60
    And other models can put targeted on people and then they can be Guided Fired upon which also ignores modifiers, LoS, and inflicts a -3 on the Dodge, this is the reason Guided is vastly more broken than hacking. It's also often Explosive or hits with a Template that affects more targets.

    I've seen complaints about everything save hacking unless it was Nomad repeater spam and multiple hackers because that's way too good.

    Basically, if no one complains about something then everyone is subconsciously agreeing that it's underpowered because if something is balanced someone will find it broken and complain. It's the "Paper is okay, Scissors is broken - regards Rock." The only exception is if everyone complains then there's objectively a problem.
     
    burlesford likes this.
  12. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic feeelthy casual

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2019
    Messages:
    633
    Likes Received:
    1,051
    I don’t think I agree with this in principle? By that standard, every non-GML weapon in the game is underpowered since we aren’t seeing constant “multi sniper OP, pls nerf” threads.

    Regardless…what you’re talking about would, at minimum, make Trinity into a somewhat better version of Pheroware: Endgame. Endgame is some frustratingly jank BS to come up against, and IMO the only reasons we don’t see complaints about it twenty times a day are that it’s not widely available, Tohaa isn’t a heavily played faction, and it can’t be used through repeaters.

    If I could move a flash pulse repeater bot up (or just fire a pitcher) and get as many b3 attacks as I want with no counterplay other than Reset, and it worked against anything with Structure…yikes. Most KHDs are WIP 13-14, so that’s B3 on 16s or 17s with a DAM 14 weapon. Even if I fail to kill the target(s), as long as that repeater is in place and I bring 2-3 KHDs (at zero SWC, why not?) they’ll be eating multiple Trinity AROs every order.

    I’d probably play a lot more vanilla Haqq and Ramah just to have access to Barids and/or really good LI/MI fireteams and sidestep the problem entirely. OSS, Onyx, Tunguska, MO, and all of Yu Jing would get promptly shelved.

    If you’re looking for something specifically to fix the UFK, this isn’t a great option. If you’re looking for more uses for a KHD, try putting one in a fireteam that moves up the board, then break it out of the team, put it in Cybermask state, and go find something juicy to shoot.
     
    xagroth likes this.
  13. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,420
    Likes Received:
    5,380
    No?
    Other models cannot put the Targeted State as easily, they must go for a face to face in linear way (and suffer the enemy's visual mods!), instead of dropping a bubble of "all my hackers will brute the Spotlight now", Forward Observer is Burst 1 in ARO (2 in Active Turn), but it's not a comms attack, so Total Inmunity ignores it, and in ARO it will be the enemy's good range against whatever you have, while with a repeater you are forcing a move + reset, and the reset faces several of your hackers at once (thus negating the ARO B1 "weakness").

    Good no, exceedingly efficient. Nomads can cram repeaters easier than any other faction by orders or magnitude, and have cheap hackers that nevertheless rarely go under WIP 13, while remaining combat-capable. Other factions can deploy one or two hackers and one or two repeaters that don't need you to cross the whole table to be effective (that measn 7-9 pts remotes), making them more manageable. Meanwhile, Nomads can spend two orders and have a heckler plant 100% a Fastpanda grabbing the piece or fireteam they want to mark, start with 1-2 repeaters already on the table, and their usual hackers (plus, of course) come with pitchers (Uhahu, pi-Well, Zoe...) or fastpandas (interventor) of their own. Plus the cheap Zeros and their love for repaters, E/M, or being hackers themselves.

    Only O12 can deploy several hackers (kappa hacker costing 12pts), but has a single pitcher unit (the cyberghost) and few extra repeaters (kappa can plant one, Siriusbots carry one).

    Again, no? Have you worked in an place when everything is urgent? The answer is "then nothing in urgent". So people not complaining about something does not mean it's underpowered, it means it's considered balanced or in line with what they think should be. Also, people protest underpowered troops and options.

    In any case, nice logical falacies, but no dice... I suggest ruminating more the rules and play more after that before claiming that hackers need to be buffed... Or you can go to other, more hacking-focused games, if that's what you are looking for, like Edge of Reality, only be warned that Infinity is the only game I know with the free ARO mechanic, other games have an approximation that cost one order for one half order of reaction... and you are capped at one of those per model.

    Also, not all troops need to be able to do a lot of things... KHDs are javelins, not toolboxes...

    Also, STRructure troops are not valid targets for this, so some factions simply laugh at it, specially some lists.

    Just imagine a Zero KHD moving to ZoC of an Avatar and start blasting Trinity at it, no need for pitchers at all. 21pts of glass specialist erasing 120+ heavy TAG of the most ancient and intelligent civilization known... Next day we would see everybody and their cousins deploying 6+ KHDs per list (you need some doctors if they are inmunne to shock somehow), because they get cheap, kill almost anything, and get objectives...
     
    Stiopa and Daireann like this.
  14. quaade

    quaade Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    60
    I have seen threads about Sniper Rifles in general being OP. Yes, they're rare and I have seen them.

    And as for Cybermask, it's a bit limited in what you describe by it having no access to Surprise Attack. It's like a Stealth+, that's all.

    Nomads have 14 profiles that have or can have a Repeater as default that moves around with them. Morans have a profile for a one-use Camo that's more expensive than the one with Repeater.

    And your example makes it sounds like the Avatar is defenseless rather than having WIP 17 and BTS 9.
     
  15. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,420
    Likes Received:
    5,380
    Sure, let's ignore IMP state does not trigger mines while Camo state does.

    So because of that it is fine to claim that a 22pts Zero should be able to Trinity an Avatar, making it a WP13+3 B3 against Reset of 17, and Dam14 vs BTS9?

    My example points to the obvious disparity between a B3 at 16 used by a 22pts Infiltrator that can cover at least 8 inches (20cm) completely unimpeded then (in the next order) attack something up to another 8 inches (20cm) thanks to its own ZoC hacking, so that leaves the further 8 inches/20cm of the table... and the only answer of a troop nearly 6 times more expensive is "reset".
    This, versus the "you move on the face of the Avatar and shoot it" at -9 (mitetism -6, cover) +3 (your range) vs, more than likely, a Sepsitor impact of damage 17 you will save or lose the troop, and now your impacts are damage 13-15 against armor 9+3... Best bet is a BSG for 2 AP shots at +6, and even then you are rolling against 8-9 at best...

    There is no "I Win" button in this game, and having imagination is rewarded. Think about it before claiming something is "underpowered" or "lacks differentiation", please.
     
    Lesh' and chromedog like this.
  16. quaade

    quaade Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    60
    Neither does Stealth which was the reason I called it Stealth+ and if you're unable to make it across the board without getting shot you're either using too little terrain or your opponent has really good overlapping fields of fire.

    And that's a different scenario than the one you laid out where you implied that the Zero could easily hack the Avatar out of existence.

    And if the Hacking got better then you could also make it more common for large things to have built-in hacking protection. That the big TAG has no inherent protection against hacking feels odd to me. BTS is only protection after the fact similar to how ARM only protects you once the bullet has hit while Mimetism protects you from being hit in the first place. I think there are less than five TAGs in the entire game that have some built-in protection against being hacked in the first place.
     
  17. burlesford

    burlesford Sheet guy

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2020
    Messages:
    1,245
    Likes Received:
    6,274
    "Fewer"

    I'll see myself out.
     
    chromedog likes this.
  18. quaade

    quaade Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    60
    I've been thinking about balance in general and it strikes me that some of the cheaper points models pay virtually nothing for taking them.
    An example of that is the Nomand Masaii Hunter.

    Firstly, I think the points for the profiles are off, there's no world where a one-time use camo and Surprise Attack is a better choice than an always working Repeater and thus should be the more expensive choice.

    Secondly, you get a lot for the relatively small amount of points you pay, and even with just one Crazy Koala, they still create a virtual no-go zone on the board due to the Repeater presence synergizing with Guided Weapons and disincentivizing HI, REM, and TAGs from even going near it. the Crazykoala is a deterrent to MI and LI. To keep them somewhat within the realm of reason with their point cost I think a new profile needs to be added and on that one, you get two Crazykoalas, Minelayer, and neither Repeater nor Camo. Then the other profiles would have no Crazykoala or Minelayer, for that matter.

    I know it's a case of comparing apples to oranges and if you look at the similar base purpose model they're all specialised toward filling a certain role. The profile with mines will have no hacking device, the profile with hacking device will have no mines, etc. You bring them for one main purpose. With a profile like the Masaii with Repeater, you bring it for three.

    Another thing I think needs to be taken a second look at is Fireteam bonuses. Here I'm talking about the 4-member bonus for the same unit type since it allows for 4-member fireteams to have a power increase they never had before. Beforehand it was just a utility bonus, now it's a straight-up power bonus. The 4-member bonus for having the same type in the Fireteam could be Stealth to represent how they would be trained in covering each other so they could pay less attention to the security of their advance and more attention to being silent when advancing. It would be a utility bonus like it was before they got Sixth Sense. The 5-member bonus for the same type should be a +2 BS mod instead.
     
    burlesford likes this.
  19. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    6,420
    Likes Received:
    5,380
    @quaade the more you talk, the more it looks like you have just discovered Nomads, if not the game at all... Not to mention how you seem to not know a lot of rules, skills and gear.

    First, I never claimed that a Zero KHD could obliterate an Avatar, but that the Avatar would be forced into a no-response available against it should the Trinity work against REM/TAG troops, which is what Reset (same as dodge against GML) amounts to. And we are talking about a unit that starts at half the table without roll, can move 8 inches unopposed (aside from mines) and then threatens the same area, in the first order spent, further orders allow for greater reach. And yes, it is possible to cross any table with a modicum of cover from side to side, it's easier with Eclipse grenades, but being good at eyeballing ranges, and moving from cover to cover, can do it outside of barren wastelands, and then it's just a matter of how many orders does it take to brute-force a Reset 17 with BTS9 VS B3 attack 16 DMG14 (so 5 or less to fail); but this is moot, since the Avatar will more often than not win the Lt roll (if not, you will always want to be first, B-Pong aside), so the Zero would not even need to move that much, just to reach the Avatar ZoC... and remember, unlike with Dodge, Reset doesn't allow movement, so...

    Second, Tags have protection, it's called ECM. Almost all have ECM (Guided) but some have ECM (Hacker), heck, even Scylla's custom devabot has it. Not to mention Fairy Dust, which would be more present in case of this change being made, so tags BTS would be +3 a lot.

    Third, your case on the Moran... is the same case that has been made since the profiles were reworked to separate the camo 1use from the Repeater. Years ago (in N4, so you should be aware of that). You fail to notice that CB seems to love the idea of Nomads playing the "deploy a repeater network before a single order gets spent", because Bakunin's (mercifully sectorial only) Initiated Observants, which have a 21pts profile with Minelayer and deployable repeater (so you can start the game with 2 repeaters already placed, and then place another 2 after a move + plant... and they carry SMGs, having 2pts more of Armor and 3 of CC, yet less skills and cost more than Morans in points, but no SWC... strange pricing scheme indeed).

    As for fireteam bonuses? Again, you are late to the party. The simplest solution I mentioned soon after the "new" system came out was for the +3BS being a 5 man pure only, so a 5 man "impure" fireteam would be the same as a 4 man, just with an extra body (the +3 to discover could be placed in haris too if pure, if so desired, but it's a less problematic bonus...), however, corvus loves to overcomplicate things (look no further to the Reinforcements thread... one single user "is ok" with the overcost of the commlink operatives, and yet I doubt we will see any change before january, again like with the Xenotechs debacle years ago.
     
  20. quaade

    quaade Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    60
    That's because Nomads are the worst offenders in having cheap models who can do a lot of things. Everyone else pays a premium if they have multi-purpose models or they're severely limited in other aspects. such as the Ikadron Batroid when it got a Repeater base, it's still only armed with a light flamethrower and as such, has a limited threat range. And even if CB loves the "deploy a Repeater network before an order is spent" there's still balance to consider, and they, since virtually everyone else can do so by now would still be able to deploy a Repeater network before an order is spent, it would just come with an opportunity cost just like for everyone else in stuff they lack over the other choice. Similar to how the Dasu profile for Forward Observer was changed to have an SMG for a combi rifle if I want a combi rifle I have to choose another profile.

    In the case of the Masaii, it's a false choice between a cheaper and vastly more useful profile that loses nothing against a more limited profile that's more expensive.

    And then you need an EVO Hacking Device. Your argument changes it from a "nice to have" to a "must-have" and then the rules make the army list for you rather than you making an army list to use the rules. It's similar to how Limited Insertion used to have near Counterintelligence protection and instead of giving them that basic you now have Counterintelligence and are pretty much forced to include that in a Limited Insertion list if you want it to be effective starting while still having some tricks up its sleeve. I'm fine with HI having no base protection as it's limited to how much you can pack into the frame when it also needs to be able to do the other things, and with TAGS it should be the norm rather than the exception. For the point investment made into them, a low-point model with a Hacking Device should be unable to effectively nullify their existence with Oblivion as easily as they can as the vast majority of TAGs have no base protection against being hacked.

    And yes, I do agree that's some odd pricing since virtually every model with a similar profile and skillset pays 0.5 SWC. They should pay that for the utility of the skill since that what's almost everyone does. Take the Naga profiles with mines. One has monofilament mines and costs 0 SWC and 30 points while the one with Minelayer only has shock mines and a cost of 0.5 SWC and 28 points.

    And if the goal is to simplify the Fireteam rules just make it so that "impure" Fireteams count as one less member for the purposes of bonuses I think that's the simplest way of solving things without making Fireteams like the Steel Phalanx Fireteams really weird.
     
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation