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SWC Value

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Lieutenant, Feb 6, 2019.

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  1. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    Why does everyone seem to assume power creep is a negative thing? Growth is a normal event in many situations (economies come to mind). The trick in game design is to maintain that growth at a reasonable pace so that it doesn't greatly outpace older options. The conversation in the last few pages is a great indicator that CB is handling that pretty well. We can all bring up units or situations that are vastly different than before, but they are not omni-present nor are they game breaking as noted in all the counter-points.


    Now if power creep is a term generally used by gamers (this is my first and only wargame so I'm not as in tune with the meta jargon) for purely negative situations I think the discussion here is a pretty good indicator that Infinity is experiencing growth and not "Power Creep" (dun-dun-duh)
     
  2. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I played Magic waaaaay back in the day. 1994-95. I remember when Ice Age and Fallen Empires came out, no previous set was competitive with them (they introduced the 1/1 token creature "buzzsaw" concept). Not Dark, not Legends, not even someone rocking Moxes, Black Lotuses, and Urza-land sets. I bailed out at that point, I could not afford to play anymore.

    Power creep [ edit: at the most extreme ] means that someone who just bought the new hotness can defeat someone who didn't, no matter the how long the second player has been playing. "pay-to-win" is the video-game equivalent.
     
    #162 Section9, Feb 21, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
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  3. chaos11

    chaos11 Well-Known Member

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    That's a very extreme example though. And if that's the definition of power creep, then there absolutely isn't power creep in Infinity.
     
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I think comparing Hollow Men to Mobile Brigada is a good example of power creep. Or Riot Grrls to Mobile Brigada.
     
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  5. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Yeah... sorry, no..

    I'm not going to deny there are new units who push the curve too much in regarding optimization (in fact, I made a thread about Hollowmen, regarding powercreep).
    But I'm going to have to agree with @chaos11 here. Infinity does NOT have MTG/40K levels of power curves and top/great experienced players are NOT losing to noobs or terrible players, merely by the fact that they bought a fresh new "OP" army. Powercreep, as used by your definition, is not a thing in this game.

    Well I personally think that this is a testament to how well this game is balanced because its easy to get caught up in threads about powercreep (OP mutts/posthumans/pokemons and what have you) which makes us insular about the subject of balance. Despite the doom and gloom of some threads, Infinity is nowhere near the rock-scissor-paper nature of Hearthstone/WarmaHordes nor does it have the external balance issues of 40K.
     
    #165 Zewrath, Feb 21, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
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  6. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    While Power Creep in infinity is clearly nowhere near the level of not being able to win with older factions it's reasonable to be concerned about it heading more in the direction of being easier to win with newer factions, especially when one of the key appeals of the game is its excellent faction balance.

    Unfortunately it's one place where the interests of the game maker and player can diverge. Players generally want a fair game. But CB have openly said (eg in the cancon video) that they want players to buy into new factions. People with old factions buying new ones instead of just playing their old ones makes them money. One way to make that happen is to make new factions strong. GW have been accused of making that a business model (and an effective one) many times but it would be a shame to see CB do the same IMHO.

    They pretty much already said that older factions arent a priority to add the new style mixed links etc to, 'because capitalism' so I think it's not a fanciful concern for players who love tight external balance.
     
  7. Kiwi Steve

    Kiwi Steve Well-Known Member

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    I think using power creep to get players to buy new faction is putting short profits ahead of long term profits. A lot of my infinity group are ex 40k players who have stopped playing that game because of power creep.

    Most of us will buy new infinity models when they come out for the same reason we bought 40k models years ago, because we think they look awesome.

    I can't keep up with CBs releases in the 2 factions I play, and haven't even used a lot of troops but own them because I like the models.

    I would hate for this game to go too far that way and it would probably work the end of our community.
     
  8. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    I have several issues with these 2 sentences.

    1. I don't agree that any of the 5 new factions are actually overpowered or so strong to the point that the factions themselves can even adequately be described as powercreep. I think the core issue of powercreep lies with strong profiles that spills over to Vanilla IN ADDITION to the ridiculously cost effiecient/too good mercs like Krakots and the Libertos.

    2. I don't like the phrasing of 'One way to make that happen is to make them strong' because it begs the question of what's the alternative? You want them to be weak? Is being strong a bad thing? Surely everything should be strong and we should only take issue with things that are too strong, right? GW have never been accused of making that business model, they were accused of making a business model where new Eldar/Necron/Space Marine books would just stomp everything flat and literally break fundamental rules of point costs, by giving hundreds of points of discount, literally throwing away any ressemblance of balance and adherence of point formula (and they even got insane special rules as an added bonus for no extra costs), so it was no longer a game with 2 armies both having 2000 points, it was a game with 1 army that had 2000 points and the other had 2500+ points BUUUUUUT ONLY if you bought very specific formations and models, which forced you to shell out hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars if you wished to play competetive. This model is the closest thing we've ever gotten a miniature game to become Pay-to-Win. So saying that CB is going down that path is hyperbolic from my perspective, as I was deeply invovled with the tournament meta of 40K for many years.

    3. Additionally, the phrasing of 'One way to make that happen is to make them strong' also ignores a lot of, for lack of a better word, context. Armies like Tunguska, OSS, Invincible Army, TAK and the upcoming Ramah Taskforce have all had a long history of anticipation. In fact, since I started playing with the release of N3, I was psyched about Tunguska and my friend was waiting forever his TAK. I think it's empty to just use the "muh capitalism" excuse about making long anticipated armies strong, because since capitalism is certainly a driving factor (they are a business), I think it's unfair to ignore CB's passion about their fanbase and make sure the armies meet the anticipation and feel like they are special and faction defining. No one wants a longly anticipated sectorial to be shit. And really, if capitalism really was such a driving factor for CB, then they would never have treated the Uprising as bad as they did nor would they, essentially, jeopardize and almost kill an entire kickstarter for their RPG, because they are so overly protective of their fluff.

    4. I don't agree with what you perceive to be a priority for CB. What I hear them say is that they want players to invest in new sectorials, so they release major miniature waves so people can quickly pick up the sectorial. But that doesn't mean that they are negligent about the rules of the other sectorials. FRRM and SAA both got "axed" regarding miniatures but they both got updates for their sectorials, which (as far as I'm aware) were received almost universally positive. In addition, MO, JSA and MAF all got updates and reworks with varying degrees of satisfaction from the playerbase but my point is that having 5 new sectorials with reworks of 5 existing armies/sectorials, isnt evidence to me of any lack of priority of existing armies.
     
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  9. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    You're absolutely right that was an extreme example. Infinity isn't anywhere near there, yet, thankfully.

    Exactly.


    I am trying to prevent the game I loved from becoming the game I hate.
     
  10. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Riot Grrls and Hollow Men are both awesome. Are they unbeatable? Not by any stretch of the imagination. Are they more efficient, broadly useful and interesting than Mobile Brigada? Yes.

    However, Mobile Brigada have never really been considered that good, so I feel like this is less power creep and more that MBs are just not very great.

    If you look at the most powerful troops in a lot of factions, the real ruinous guys that people absolutely have to watch out for, Intruders, Swiss Guard, Fidays, Posthumans... They've all been in the game for years and years. I don't think power creep is really such a thing at all. Honestly I feel like a lot of people are getting really het up over nothing. N3 is way more balanced than 2nd ed and currently N3 is very nicely balanced IMO. There's no faction or Sectoral that I wouldn't happily play with any faction or Sectoral and feel like the result would be skewed by the power balance.
     
  11. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

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    I would say Infinity has not as much power creep as it has feature creep.
    There's a few fairly new skills that are meh (Guard being the prime example) and some skills or weapons are one-unit only (like Veteran lv2, Remote Assistant, Decoy and until recently Jammer). Do we need that many new skills when existing ones are underutilized? Especially as some overlap with old ones (Mech Deploy and FD2/Infiltration, Decoy is a form of Holoprojector etc.).
    Mixed links throw a bit of a spanner in the works, but I think it's more of a case of people adjusting to them than their power. Bagh-Mari mixing with Regulars wouldn't turn heads if Bagh-Mari weren't good and Wildcard was already a thing with William Wallace.
     
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  12. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    So it seems there is an agreement that the power creep is being controlled decently, albeit at different opinion levels of how well (that might be a good indicator that it is doing at least an acceptable job of balancing ) instead of the B will beat A Power Leaping like Section references (I played MTG back then too and very much remember that shift). Thanks for helping me clear that up everyone. I was really confused while catching up.

    Personally, given the amount of updates and adjustments last year and what seems to be a similar level in the works for this one I'm confident that CB is aware of the issues that arise with the power growth and are working to alleviate them as much as possible without releasing N4 (which has issues all of its own to deal with). While I may not like all the choices they make (Really wish I could make a Yadu/Deva Core for example) I am really anticipating what is going to happen with the next book and what seems like a more flexible approach to updates that they have adopted.
     
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @Zewrath those too-cheap alien mercs are part of how they sell new books tho.
     
  14. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

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    I find that the book-release miniatures encourage people to buy because they look cool and are limited in nature, not because of their rules. I've never had a conversation where someone says "oh man that Liberto's rules are amazing, I'm definitely paying $50 so I can field it, even though I can freely proxy anything I want in this game."

    No. People proxy it if they want to use the rules. They buy miniatures because they like the miniature.

    If CB were trying to power creep via powerful mercs in order to encourage sales, they'd make the Liberto, Krakots, etc. available to all Sectorials. But they haven't. Because of balance: Vanilla is intended to have a broad range of tools, and Sectorials are designed to have a limited range of tools that are individually more powerful through AVA and Link Teams. Some Sectorials get some Mercs, because it's always been established that Mercs tend to have a "home Sectorial" where they thematically belong. This goes all the way back to the Yuan Yuan in QK, Saito in JSA, etc.

    I disagree with the notion that Krakots and Libertos are too cheap by the way. We can lump the Cube Jaeger and Le Muet in here too. The initial community reaction to every single one of these units has actually been that they're underpowered relative to cost. It's only as players experiment that they start finding the value and utility of these units.

    That trend tells me that these units are right where they should be in terms of power level, with at least one of these mercs showing up periodically in Vanilla lists, but not universally. That feels like pretty good health for army selection, especially in Vanilla whose entire selling point is having access to a broad spectrum of useful units. When I see someone pay 1 SWC for that Liberto, or 14 points for a Krakot, they're certainly giving up something decent in exchange.
     
  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @barakiel Maybe. I see the Liberto extremely frequently from vanilla players of all stripes, and the Cube Jager is a close second.
     
    #175 Hecaton, Feb 21, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
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  16. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    @Zewrath

    I don't disagree with a lot of what you (and others) say except that I think you read a bit too much into what I said. Words don't have perfect context so maybe 'One way to make that happen is to make them strong' is a bit vague (but somewhat intentionally so since I was making a fairly general point). I don't think I'm being particularly hyperbolic, partly because I'm not saying "this is happening, the sky is falling" but "this is something it's reasonable to be wary of, and you could make the argument there are maybe some hints of it starting it if you look for them". There's also some counter evidence.

    But greater profit focus can help explain a few things (like the reluctance to fix rules holes, because it doesn't directly sell models and takes resources). Also the "because capitalism" comment didn't come from me, it came from Bostria (in the Cancon video when asked about older sectorials getting updated with mixed fireteams etc).

    Also, power creep doesn't have to be deliberate. Just adding new interesting options to the game (the alternative to "making them strong" you were looking for) can inadvertently add things that are more powerful than the designers intended, especially in a very complex system like infinity. And the fact that there's probably a sales bump from that probably encourages it. In fact, the more you add, the more likely this is to happen at some point. And relatively, they've been adding a lot, fast.

    Overall, I'm not saying this is a terrible problem right now. It could become more of one though. And since some things have me slightly concerned about it (eg, Kamau, Libertos etc) it's worth discussing.
     
    #176 Hachiman Taro, Feb 21, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
  17. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    @Hachiman Taro

    Oh for sure, in fact I don’t think you and I even disagree overall. But I do think it’s important to be clear and concise when talking about power creep. Not only does it help us address specific issues (rules profiles) but most importantly, for me, to rob any credence to anyone attempting to dismiss genuine concerns as “hyperbolic trolls on the forum” and similar statements.

    Overall though, I’ve found this exchange on the subject quite pleasant and informative.
     
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  18. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

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    Definitely not with Libertos, everyone saw them as OP BS initially.
     
  19. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Libertos seem crazy times! But the really useful profile is the minelayer, and the minelayer is 1 SWC. That's in no way a minor investment.
     
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  20. AngryPanda

    AngryPanda Well-Known Member

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    People have just gottten used to Smoke Warbands with impetious only having upsides from it and the mere idea of a dedicated ARO piece with MSV is driving them up the wall because of it. As suddenly that reduction in price and free extra order does come with an actual downside.
     
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