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Shikami??

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by atomicfryingpan, Jun 26, 2018.

  1. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    So I've been making myself try different units and today had a game where I tried the full domaru link which I managed to March across the board and proceeded to wreck stuff in my friends deployment zone. Anyway I brought a single shikami to push some buttons and occasionally stab people but immediately got a msv2 sniper pinning him down. There really wasn't any place I could go so i understand that i really didnt get to see it shine but looking at its profile I'm wondering is it really worth its points? I get that it's a highly mobile button pusher but I can take ninja or saito and just camo up and walk past them. Theres also better cc fighters. So what really is their role?
     
  2. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I feel like they're highly mission specific. In some stuff, you can duo them efficiently, and leave one in the middle of the table safe-ish on a rooftop to do midfield stuff and run the other to go mess with stuff in the enemy DZ.

    2 wounds makes them incredibly resilient especially compared to paper ninjas, and they also have PH14 which means they're much better at dodging (especially if whatever is shooting at you doesn't have MSV.)

    If you're going to play the duo, I would take 8 more units with them in the same combat group and not expect to use the other units on turn 1. You are correct that they are going to need 2-3 orders to get anywhere an infiltrator can start, so you need to make up the efficiency by either packing 2 of them or packing extra orders for them.

    I just feel like it's kind if hard to justify versus the Karakuri Haris with the Domaru. You get a lot of the same CC utility as well as 2 Total Immunity dogged remote presence FOs for just 10 points more.
     
    #2 meikyoushisui, Jun 26, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
  3. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

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    Use the search feature and check through the JSA folder here... There's been some good discussion in the past.

    Consensus seems to be that the Shikami is very good in missions where you want to have both a mobile Specialist and a mobile Datatracker capable of hunting down hidden targets. In this settings, the Shikami is fantastic and really shines. Even the simple act of going prone on top of a midfield building is valuable, since it will draw an opponent's attention and can control/contest quadrants.

    For general missions purposes though, he's expensive and limited. For general combat, I will almost always reach for an Oniwaban or Saito first. The marker state, Hidden Deployment and Surprise Attack are very strong, not to mention smoke grenades on Saito, or the specialized ranged weapons/Monofilament on the Oniwaban.
     
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  4. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    How much vertical terrain was there on the table?

    Shikami really shine the brightest when there are lots of tall buildings to work with (you do also need rooftop clutter, mind). That 8" super-jump can get to the top of a 3-level MAS District 5 apartment in a single jump. Then the Shikami run across the rooftops and make huge jumps horizontally.

    Also, Shikami are CC23 and MA3, just like Domaru (the only difference is that Domaru have Berserk). So Shikami are just as good in CC as non-Berserking Domaru. Critting on 14+ and the opponent needs to roll at least an 8 to have any chance of beating them in CC. Plus Shikami have AP+DA hits in CC, which makes them Death Incarnate to 1W models. Ariadnans about crap themselves when a Shikami shows up, since DA CCW don't care about your Shock Immunity.

    For that matter, how much terrain was there total? There shouldn't be too many places where you can draw LOF from table edge to table edge.
     
  5. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    Table set up wasn't great. It was limited verticality and dense in the middle and more sparse on the outsides and edges. I do think with a better table he'd have been better utilized and I think I get what your saying with having to utilize the terrain to get him into cc. I guess that's his niche going around the fire lanes as opposed as through them. Gonna try him again and focus more on him and might bring two to either duo or have one on each side of the board.

    Cc23 with ma3 is nuts. My domaru were just wrecking face in close combat. So I can imagine the shikami doing the same thing once they're in there.
     
  6. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yep!

    I mean, if that sniper didn't have MSV2 you can risk crossing a fire lane if you have to, since you should be at -9 to hit most of the time, but against an MSV2 sniper you really need to be able to go around the fire lanes.
     
  7. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    Of course, your Shikami also tied up the MSV2 sniper to cover his route, leaving your Domaru to wreck face. Look at it that way, and those weren't wasted points.

    The order pool dynamic really allows that tactic to be viable - if your opponent repositions the sniper, the Shikami suddenly becomes a threat. I treat my JSA like a game of chess - all the pieces are worth sacrificing in some way, be it in a trade, or just board position.
     
  8. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    The difference is the sniper was probably a MI who didn't intend to move anyway, and probably cost between 2/3 of what a Shikami does.
     
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  9. Fyeya

    Fyeya Yakitori over a light flamethrower

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    Yeah, Brawler Multi-Snipers are a pain to get past as JSA... along with all others of their ilk, they're just one of the cheaper MSV2 ones I can think of.

    I've found in those cases I use my main army to create chaos before loosing the shikami - he really shines once the formations have opened up.

    He's also a very mobile button pusher.
     
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  10. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    True, that doesn't diminish the point, tho; opportunity cost (in terms of snipers not being able to oppose the Domaru, or whatever it may be) is also factored in. Otherwise, why would you make unequal trades in chess?
     
  11. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    I have to echo Barakiel here.
    As a midfield Datatracker/specialist he looks pretty good, however I am not convinced there are not better options.

    However as just a muscle/Rambo unit he is pretty lacking imo.
     
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  12. Kainsaw

    Kainsaw Special Safeguard, megastructure provisional level

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    I like the shikami, even if it is a point-sink. He's like a parkour chainsaw, that can push buttons and take a punch on the chin.

    In my last game I cleared a whole flank of CA with the shikami by coming over the roof and dropping on the first Morat in CC, and the slicing the pie on two more with the assault pistol. Ending the round with a 2-order shootout with a Maakrep sniper. The MSV2 helped against my ODD, but 4 dice vs 1 won the day.
     
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  13. clever handle

    clever handle Well-Known Member

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    Nine times out of ten I would take two ryuken over one shikami. You keep two wounds, gain an extra order, mines, infiltration and the xvisor plus smg trumps a combi rifle every day
     
  14. Shatidox

    Shatidox Well-Known Member

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    I'm still kinda new to Infinity so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I think the Shikami is a trap unit, which I am really sad about since I love the model.
    At first glance it seems like he has all the cool skills and could be an effective rambo unit, but he starts in your deployment zone and he has no long or even medium range weapons beside the combi which I would hesitate to call medium range. His CC is impressive, but again he needs a lot of orders to get close enough to use it and walking him all the way into close range while keeping him safe from long range fire since he can't really shot back effectively requires a lot of orders, even with climbing plus and super jump.

    The contender profile's strength is the B4 assault pistol +3 at 8" range or +0 at 16". The Nimbus grenades can provide some limited benefits against linkteam AROs and the contender is ok as an aro weapon but not great.
    If I want something dead in close range why not just use an Oniwaban, Saito or Shinobu, they start much closer to the enemy are just as deadly if not more so with Mono weapons and smoke grenades.

    The other option is the combi rifle profile, and at first the idea of placing him in suppressive fire seems awesome, a -12 penalty for shooting at him and he is heavy infantry, but again you have to spend orders getting him close enough, and there are many tricks for dealing with models in suppressive.
    As clever handle mentioned two Ryûken does this job much better by starting further up, also having ODD and mines to boot, also SMGs are better close range and suppressive weapons than combies and the Ryûken even comes with an x-visor.

    Even though there are specific missions where he could be useful I struggle to justify his point cost against other options, especially since the ITS format is lists built for multiple different missions.
    I hope we will see a new profile at some point that makes the Shikami worth taking, or some updates to the profile in general.
     
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  15. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Like I said, the Shikami is very terrain dependent, probably even moreso than snipers or Chain Rifle warbands. Though having 2 of 3 JSA smoke-throwers (Yojimbo and either Saito or Shinobu) in the same list will help.

    If you don't have a lot of vertical terrain in your collection yet, I'd buy some before I bought a Shikami. Actually, I'd buy or build vertical terrain (like those MAS District 5 apartments) every month there's not a JSA release, until I had at least 8 pieces, plus some rooftop scatter and/or billboards to block LOF up high. Then, and only then, would I buy the two Shikami.
     
  16. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Nope you basically nailed everything that even long time players don't like about the unit.
     
  17. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Coming from Tohaa, while the Kotail lacks the CC, the PH and ODD, the 15-10cm movement and the Holoproyector makes it a much more useful unit, because it gives him what he needs to survive while getting close: fast movement and a chance to move out in the wild without getting shot to death because of ARO.
     
  18. Kainsaw

    Kainsaw Special Safeguard, megastructure provisional level

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    this can't be argued with.
    .
     
  19. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    The Spitfire helps a bit, too... ;)
     
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  20. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, although I was thinking in the Specialist Profile, also armed with a plain Combi like the Shikami.