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Saito SO option?

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by gorin, Apr 10, 2019.

  1. Janzerker

    Janzerker Invincible Angry

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    Thematically? Let me point at one old example that did what you're trying to deny: the Kempeitai:
    The Kempeitai might be as well one of the most insulting unit designs for a wargame. Conceived as an unit for the faction of YuJing it was nearly useless in the generic list, finding only a place in the JSA sectorial. From a design point of view it's a wasted slot. But the most infuriating thing was the fact it could be fielded as a merc by any faction, whenever mercs were allowed, with a profile featuring impersonation against any YJ army and d charges.

    Want another example? Rui Shi in Dahshat with an amazing special fireteam that the home army can't enjoy.

    Another more? WuMing enjoying a haris option in Ikari that is missing in ISS.

    I'm sure you can see the trend.

    So Saito lost the SO option in JSA after a year enjoying it? Well then it's time to bear up with it and adapt. Alternatively there's the option to play another faction or even quit the game if the player can't stomach this.

    There's only one person that can answer your question and that is Gutier Lusquiños, aka Interruptor, aka he who has the ultimate word about game design and rules. And he's quite busy to waste time showing up on forums, so it's never gonna happen. If you want your question answered you have very few options, which narrow down to mainly participate in the next Interplanetario and get the chance to meet him in person. Otherwise you're wasting your time with futile requests.

    Besides I would like to point out community is not entitled to get an answer about any change decision in the game. It didn't happen when Ko Dali moved from YJ to CA, it didn't happen when Alive team disappeared from the rosters, it didn't happen when Uprising hacked a full sectorial 15 profiles worth from its parent faction and was given no compensation; and it won't happen because of a profile option disappeared from a list after a year. Just accept that changes happen in Infinity and what it's given now can be erased later. Or move on.
     
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  2. Janzerker

    Janzerker Invincible Angry

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    I'm sorry but this is not Tohaa. there're no ultra optimized profiles here. JSA is in essence and design a YuJing army and as such it's full of bloat and wannabe "Jack of all trades master of none" profiles. The army has been in that way for almost a decade and while now it's better than before it continues keeping the same essence and weak points.
     
  3. maru

    maru Well-Known Member

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    All above is an effect of story line events not an error or randomnes nerf
    Ko dali was a cancer btw :P
    Alive thingi - all the time Event based mutator
    Uprising nerf and current New nerf for Onyx got a story line reasons and /or balance
    - Onyx lost Speculo but got inferior unit in replace - way weaker then Speculo but way less expensive - doing same
    it may be that in Dedalus Fail Saito do something that rends him of his specialist profile in JSA - it is not yet publicly reliced.

    Kempetai in YJ was a no clue what it was ... beside story line thingi
    Datass sectorial is .. strange lets say it in this way - bashi Specialist 17p , Wildcard boty hunter and Sforza , Libertos fish man and tones of smoke from bikes and A Mac Murow ... oand Hunzakut - if someone do not have to mutch gimped units.
    This bring me to a conclusion that i can play Datass in upcoming campain at local game store ... if i desire to be an ass
     
  4. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I absolutely agree and have explicitly spoken against any and all such design choices. I have criticized the inclusion of the Rui Shi fireteam in Dahshat, the rising number of sectorial-specific profiles, and many other changes that are made for fluff rather than design reasons.

    I mean, I haven't been playing them regularly since last year now, but I don't really see a reason to go back, at this point. I will always have nostalgic feelings for JSA as my first "real" army in the game. That said, I think telling people "deal with it or quit" is not a positive way to help build up the community.

    "Gutier is too busy to explain why he has made the worst choice of 2019 so far." And yes, I know he's very unlikely to show up, but there are other CB staff members who should be privy to the rationale for the change.

    Sure, but I think you would agree that more transparency from CB as a whole would be a positive move? Especially since you've complained about Uprising here... The community isn't entitled to an answer, but CB isn't entitled to having everyone in the community praise them all the time. I can be as critical of them as I care to be (which right now, is a lot, though the FAQ from this morning did generate a bit of goodwill.)

    JSA was never in design a YJ army, they play wildly different on the table, and it does have quite a few well-optimized profiles. I also think that it's weird of you to criticize my points that are critical of CB while simultaneously making such points yourself...
     
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  5. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    What would be acceptable to you? Like, what could Gutier say to satisfy you? I suspect literally nothing would do. In that case, why engage in a pointless debate? If you honestly went into it with an open mind (for which, the phrase "worst choice of 2019" isn't any indication of), that would be different.
     
  6. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    "We believed Saito's Specialist Operative profile to have a negative impact on JSA for the following gameplay reasons ____ ____ ____ and hoped removing it would encourage ___ ____ and ____. We will continue to watch how this impacts the performance of JSA players in tournament play and roll back the change if or when we find it has a negative impact on the JSA listbuilding and play experience, based both on raw data from ITS tournament results and opinions of top JSA players and their opponents. We apologize for the sudden change without any advance announcement as we know the model has been a cornerstone of JSA lists for many players, and will do our best to move towards becoming more transparent about incoming balance or design changes to armies in the future. To do this, we will be making internal changes and using the following metrics __________ __________ and ________ to judge how we are doing, and the results of this analysis will be made as a blog post to our website every three months until we and the community can agree we have reached our goals."

    I just want a basic explanation of why the choice was made, an apology for leaving it for a year and letting it become a staple of JSA lists before tearing it out, and specific goals for how they can improve their transparency in the future.

    You're right, this is probably the second most questionable choice, after Fat2 on Sheskin. I always have an open mind, but CB is consistently so opaque in their reasoning for design choices that it's really hard to assume they know how people are playing their game sometimes. But in either case, I won't stand for accusations that I'm arguing in bad faith, because I'm not.
     
    #26 meikyoushisui, Apr 11, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
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  7. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    It's more that the choice of your language creates the impression of a closed mind. As, indeed this does, to a lesser extent.

    It feels that there is an implicit assumption that this is wrong, and will be corrected. Can you see how that prevents open discussion, and probably dissuades any game designer from getting mired in an argument they can't win?
     
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  8. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I think you're attributing a tone to my writing style that isn't actually contained in my words based on the fact I've been vitriolic about this in other places. If the data and play experience shows that the army is better without Specialist Saito, then I'll accept it, but I'm not going to accept a totally opaque answer based on "just trust us", if that's what you mean. But based on just a glance, I think everyone would agree taking away an option from an army that already has a pretty middling capability in ITS is not going to be positive for its balance.

    I absolutely don't see how what I choose to say or not say has any impact on what other people are allowed to say or not say. Policing my tone and telling me that what I have to say is only okay if I say it in a certain way, however, is an excellent example of trying to prevent open discussion.
     
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  9. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    The fact that you've been vitriolic elsewhere creates exactly the atmosphere I'm describing. And, of course, no thread exists in isolation. If I were in their position, I'd read through both threads, and I'd expect to have been made aware of any interventions by mods, perhaps.

    I'm not trying to police your tone - I'd be just as interested to find out. I merely suggest that the way you're going about it is counterproductive...
     
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  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Uhm, actually, @meikyoushisui 's suggested comment is exactly the kind of thing that is recommended for companies changing big things like this. It's called Community/Customer Relations Management.


    This phrase would also work:
    "We made this controversial change because it was never supposed to be there in the first place. However, it should not have taken a year to be found and removed, and we have changed our review process to catch things like this quicker in the future. We are sorry for the confusion this has caused."

    I mean, we're all kinda used to the first few days after an Army update to be a little wonky and maybe have typos or whatever. If this had been caught immediately after the Uprising update, nobody would have blinked, though there would have been some whining. Blame the person coding Army, problem solved.

    Now, though, it's been a very common feature of JSA lists for a year. That's far too long to be an 'oops, that wasn't supposed to be there' change! I thought someone at CB was a JSA player, so this should have been caught pretty quick.
     
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  11. maru

    maru Well-Known Member

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    Rofl
    nah They all play Aristeia all the time XD and this new not Black stone fortres for Infinity
     
  12. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    I guess oversights can happen at any stage of the process, and not just in the final transcription. Suppose he was playtested at some point with SO, but it was an active decision to remove him (DBS pre-dating JSA and all), but that oversight was made and missed before the force was finalised and published. Whatever, I'm not bothered trying to reconstruct some imaginary CB office structure, just to accept that sometimes these things get embedded.

    An apology, tho, would be welcome, tho I don't feel I require one.
     
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  13. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I'm honestly more irked that it took them a year to find the 'error' and fix Army, and that somehow there were Units PDFs back to v4.0 showing Saito in the JSA section showing Saito having a Specialist Operative profile.

    Let me say that again.

    The first consolidated Units PDF after Uprising showed Saito in JSA with a Specialist Operative Profile. https://assets.infinitythegame.net/downloads/profiles/en/v4.0/profiles.pdf pg 58. Units PDF v3.8 still has JSA as part of Yu Jing.

    It was a mistake, fine. It took way to long for this mistake to be identified.
     
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  14. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it is irksome. But, the way I see it you can get upset over something you can't control, but where does it get you? More than anything, this will probably make me want to play the aragato more. Especially as there's a Nomad player round these parts who just discovered the Zondnautica...
     
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