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Saito Army Glitch?

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by ambisinister, Mar 27, 2019.

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  1. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    @Koni can you please confirm this, and if so, explain why the balance team believes JSA is in need of such a massive nerf?
     
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  2. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Not saying it's justified, but probably an attempt to stop Saito competing with the Ninjas as TO specialist while carrying smoke.

    Really what they should've done is unfucked the majority of the shitty Ninja profiles but hey, you're stuck with the same problem YJ has.
     
    the huanglong and meikyoushisui like this.
  3. Dude

    Dude Lazy Bushi
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    PanO thought patterns detected.
    *tightens tinfoil hat*
     
  4. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, aren't the ninjas like the iconically inventors of smoke bombs after all?!?
     
    #44 daszul, Apr 2, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2019
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  5. ambisinister

    ambisinister Broken Zoetrope

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    Thanks for checking. Too bad the answer is something of a bummer.
     
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  6. Stur

    Stur Member

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    I love this sectorial, and it is in fact currently the only army I have painted out of 4 total (In 3-4 years of playing, yes im lazy). But I must say, with the removal of the specialist profile I cant help but feel that the sectorial is just fighting against it self. Is the tactic now more than ever to just hold on to that Ninja until last turn and push buttons, effectively playing with 271pts. Or do you have any other suggestions? Relatively new to the army only got sub 15 games with it so far.
     
  7. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    If only JSA just got an impervious HI, at effectively ARM6, with Forward Observer as standard...

    I think JSA might just need to realign the playstyle around a push from the DZ. It isn't as tho there aren't superfast bike specialists available, either...
     
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  8. ambisinister

    ambisinister Broken Zoetrope

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    I can’t speak for anyone else, but for me the problem is less that Saito is lynchpin for the armiy’s success but rather that it takes an army that has limited variety in the tools at its disposal and removes an option.
     
  9. yoink101

    yoink101 Well-Known Member

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    With the update to total immunity, karakuri are arguably the strongest profile in the game. Being able to ignore the negative effects of e/m, which used to be one of their bigger weaknesses, with a haris of three wound specialists is amazing. Anything that shoehorns players taking one option over all others is disappointing though.
     
  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Well, crap.



    Very much this.

    Just about everyone was taking Saito anyway, because he was a smoke source. But now, JSA is in close to the same place as Imperial Service was in N2. Very few build options for button-pushing missions.
     
  11. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    So will this nerf to Saito and the buff to the Karakuri shift the way JSA will be played?
     
  12. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I don't like making an equivalence between the two because Saito was showing up in probably half of JSA lists and Karakuri were almost unplayed entirely. I don't like the comparison some people have made about them as specialists either, since they are about as different as any two specialists can be...

    The Nerf to Saito has a huge impact on our button pushing ability. The problem is that most lists will still want him as a precious source of smoke, but now will be forced to take or spend orders on another midfield button pusher. This means every JSA list is losing 30 points to take a ninja specialist in addition to Saito.

    Or alternatively, they're now taking some weird combination like Ninja KHD + Shinobu over Saito + Oniwaban, which is a similar cost but significantly worse for the vast majority of tasks.


    As for the Karakuri buff, I'm sure it means we'll see more Karakuri played but the cost increase puts the cost of the Haris back towards pre-Uprising cost ranges.
     
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  13. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.

    This is NOT a good change.



    I'm seriously thinking that CB usually took the Domaru Haris plus Karakuri Mk12 and HSG. That's a cheaper (and, IMO, better) Haris.

    Japanese Secessionist Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]3
    DOMARU (Fireteam: Haris) Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (0.5 | 27)
    KARAKURI Heavy Shotgun, Chain Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 38)
    KARAKURI Mk12, Chain Rifle, D.E.P. / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 43)

    0.5 SWC | 108 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    That's actually 3pts less than the pre-change all-Karakuri Haris, and gives you a Domaru for murdering anyone trying to kill your specialists.
     
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  14. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    That is what I meant:
    Less Saito and more Karakuri, which entails further shifts away from DoTanko towards KHD Ninjas.
    I already used to field the Karakuri-Domaru Haris quite often, mostly because of the cost advantage, but with the TI change the survivability of the Karakuri over the Domaru became so much better that I now rather try to take the full Karakuri Haris.
    After all with all the B2 chainrifles already present melee has rarely been an issue, and EM is rather situational, too.
    With an engineer taking care of the Karakuri it is really hard to bring them down. The Haris Domaru has only wounds, no second level of unconsciousness, worse BTS and of course no TI.
     
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  15. Fire@Will

    Fire@Will Well-Known Member

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    Of course, a Domaru with DA, or even Neko, are valid choices for something like Sabotage. It depends on the mission.

    And, the 8" threat bubble of an Assauting Domaru might be handy, if you intend to exploit it.

    Meanwhile, aragato also still exist...
     
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  16. Abydog

    Abydog Well-Known Member

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    I am definitely giving the mixed haris a try.
    probably with one mk22, one heavy shotgun and, well, no options there, the haris domaru with chain rifle
     
  17. maru

    maru Well-Known Member

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    I think i know what was CB intent - it was "remove unwanted auto include unit from all lists " so they decide an auto include factor in Saito is Specialist profile ... and they are wrong.
    To make Saito not auto include - just remove smoke from him and give a smoke to Riuken - 9 - create a lame profile with pointless weapon but with a smoke - it sudenly will became a auto include unit
    something like Forvard deplioy , Mimetysm , Smoke granades , Water pistol , CC Rubber duck , for 18p or even 22 p - Smoke = auto include in a lot of lists .
     
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  18. grampyseer

    grampyseer User of the "ignore" button
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    **walks into room**

    Hey guys, I’m back! What did I miss...

    ...oh, dear lord. No!


    **drops tray of mochas**


    I do realize what that profile brought to the faction, but I’m also glad that I can justify taking Shinobu a little more often.

    I can’t help but feel that the easier remedy would just have been a ninja profile with smoke grenades.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  19. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Or just add a Ninja profile with Smoke Grenades, maybe even one of those with bow.
    I think it will become an autoinclude nevertheless.
    Because, after all, aren't the ninjas the iconically inventors of the smoke bombs?
    Why do shaolins have smoke but ninjas don't?!?

    Edit: ninja'd by @grampyseer...
     
  20. Shatidox

    Shatidox Well-Known Member

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    Well, that is really disappointing... Guess I won't be getting that new Saito model after all
     
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