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Reinventing JSA: Some Thoughts

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by barakiel, Jul 19, 2019.

  1. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    I mean... I get the anime perspective of Samurai, but Yojimbo having smoke shows us that even CB doesn't take that very seriously. You might as well claim that Domaru shouldn't be able to spec fire E/M grenades, because throwing them over a wall at someone isn't "honorable" either. Or that noone should have access to missile launchers or Chain Rifles in JSA, because taking out multiple enemies with one shot defeats the notion of single, honorable combat.

    JSA already has limitations that reinforce their background. I'm more interested in making them playable.
     
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  2. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Had to look it up again on wikipedia.

    I think it was the Konran.

    The Ninja we have in the game today are more along the lines of the teisatsu or kishu. The spy/Kanchou doesn't really have a place on the Infinity battlefield, the perfect spy mission is one where the target never realizes that they were spied upon!
     
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  3. Desolad0r

    Desolad0r Member

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    Fuck @Mahtamori, now I need to prove the Domaru-Shikami Duo
     
  4. asdepicas

    asdepicas Active Member

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    I see your point but Domaru are already playable, giving them smoke would just make them auto-play.
    And yes, yojimbo has smoke, because he is supposed to be a honorless ronin
     
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  5. clever handle

    clever handle Well-Known Member

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    I'll hop on the wishlisting bandwagon and give you some of my thoughts:

    Keisotsu: I wish their BS had been raised to the average LI score of 11 post uprising. It could have been represented as a trial by fire and/or a representation of better training at home than at the hands of the Yu Jing state empire. It just gripes me that these guys have low BS, WP and PH (the civilians dodge better!), a bump to PH11 would be almost meaningless in the game but would at least satisfy me that our soldiers are more fit than the civilians they escort around

    Kempei: I wish for two things here. I'm happy with the loadouts they've given us, but I wish there were LT options. I also wish that there were alternate loadouts to the COC profile without it. As with the keisotsu PH bump, this would be almost meaningless but a few point swing on the profile creates more uncertainty about whats off the table.

    Ryuken: These guys function so differently I think they should be given separate profiles. The Major is great as she is, providing a fantastic midfield speedbump that can alternatively punish bad deployments. Batuo is more limited. I've had good success with him as a deployment zone guard and including him in coordinated orders with Tanko (see below). He obviously compares poorly to the Helot who comes in at nearly a third his cost and completes the same role in other factions. I'd almost suggest this fella should be given his own profile with MSV2 in addition to his current loadout to give him a role focused on burning out infiltrators. Call him the Ryuken 8 or whatever and make both he and the major AVA2.

    Domaru: Wildcard. And why do the BS weapons cost so damned much on a BS12 platform?

    Tanko: These guys profiles are fine as it is. As with the rest of the NA2 armies, I'm not sure why Ikari can link these gents with keisotsu but JSA can't. Drop the Domaru requirement for the fireteam core back down to one (see mushashi). I often find that I'm breaking my link to use these guys in a coordinated order with a Ryuken HRL. When my opponent counter deploys a linked Haidao sniper I'm not confident on trading 2 on 16's back and forth where one hit either way can spell doom. Instead I'll take the coordinated shot, running the dudes across whatever gap I need while popping 3 shots on 13's where he can only oppose one (with his two 19's...). Once the gap's forded, either reform the link or sally forward for the second shot if necessary. This tactic works well on open tables when coupled with a shikami for eclipse grenade cover.

    Daiyokai: This guy definitely got overshadowed by the Karakuri since the buff to total immunity. His profiles are fine for what he is, but there in lies the problem. None of the big S5 heavy infantry are really worth their points. To see this guy used more I think he should have an LT profile with inspiring leadership (in JSA). The use of an LT order as a coordinated order thematically fits as the samurai advance as one in a banzai charge, and with the few irregular orders JSA has access to becoming regular this wouldn't break the game state.

    Shikami: These guys are honestly great at what they do. I run them along with a DoTanko core in a 14 order JSA list. working in tandem these guys are able to control the midfield as nothing wants to get within 8".

    Karakuri: They're definitely fine. They were good before the TI buff, and they're definitely good now.

    Ninja: my opponents always say that they think ninja should have smoke grenades. I don't. I think that for what they are, they're generally costed fairly. Their base stats are in line with other camo infiltrators, but they have TO and the CC skills to add ten points to their cost. The CC is situational, but it is a great tool to take out other midfield skirmishers and to tackle suppression fire. When I think ninjas, I think acrobatic skills. I'd like to see climbing plus on ninjas and oniwaban.

    Oniwaban: in light of the overhaul to total immunity, and the existence of missions requiring DA attacks I'd like to see mono get an overhaul. It just doesn't make sense to me that my oniwaban can cut a jotum in half but not an AC2 or karakuri. As with ninja, climbing plus.

    Everything else: I think the rest is basically alright.
    The characters all function the way they're intended and are costed reasonably; again I'd like to see climbing plus on Kitsune.
    The Aragoto don't need changing, once you remember that you can dismount they can deliver punishing weapons into your opponents' DZ with little investment.
    The O'yoroi is acceptable. Manned tags in general need a buff of some kind but if I get to use him the way I want to the AP HMG is preferable to the multi, as he's only copping ARO's while in suppression fire.
    ---
    tl/dr? I honestly think JSA is in a fine spot.
     
  6. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Domaru are barely playable now. Look at how high level players are playing the faction and you'll see they're very situational at best right now.

    It's because CB wildly overvalues CC in units that start in the DZ. A Domaru has a similar cost to an Orc or Hospitallers for Combi rifles (the Hospitaller is actually cheaper). Can you honestly say that the CC ability adds up to having more utility than either of these units do? Because I can't.
     
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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Domaru are wildly better than Orcs. Due to Frenzy being a discount that rarely inconveniences Domaru at all, Domaru are sitting very close in cost to where they should be when taking into account the high cost of melee ability.

    Also they'd abuse the ever living hell out of smoke. Samurai are opportinistic bastards. That doesn't change that a spammable, coreable, PH 14 unit with high use for smoke would be very abuseable. Don't have a cored Kamau? Want to concede and save an hour of your life?
     
    #27 Mahtamori, Jul 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2019
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  8. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Tanko AVA is fine imho...

    Domaru Wildcard is nice, and Eclipse is a nice idea - helps them to advance without improving JSA's smoke MSV2 tricks

    Ryuken-9
    HRL is really a problem, because for his one-shot usage he is too expensive.
    But Ryuken seem to be meant to be not linkable. What about Holo-1 instead of limited camo? Ryuken seem like hightec.
    And I'd love to see some Ryuken-9 with Feuerbach!

    The expensive Keisotsu Lt. is fine, imho, as JSA wants to encourage aggresive lieutenants.
    But decreasing their CC for 8 points base cost seems reasonable. They are the worst line troopers after all.

    The SWC reduction fur the REMs seems reasonable. Rui Shi is not linkable but has that SWC tax? Why?

    I would not change Shikami too much, but FD2 or Infiltration really is desperately needed. And change MOV to 6-2.
    Adding a SMG profile is a really nice idea, too.

    Daiyokai - just give him Total Reaction (but not just Neurocinetics) to make him a better roadblock, even in the first turn.
    Right now I never use him over Tankos or Domarus.

    Ninjas. Well - see my signature. They need smoke grenades. And change the Tactical Bow range mods to +6/+3/-3.

    Kuroshi Rider. I think giving her Berserk fits the Dogged (and 'back from the dead') theme, but then shock immunity is much needed.
    But Assault with a bike sounds like fun!

    Mushashi should get AD1 or Infiltartion - would fit his fluff. Or wildcard.
    Right now he is - well - I never use him...
     
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  9. REND

    REND Well-Known Member

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    Ok, this comment triggered me because I don't think I've ever thought of JSA as unplayable. Maybe I've been playing Yu Jing for too long but last time I took JSA to an event (about a year ago) I came second with it. (Wasn't a big event but about 20 players and most knew what they were doing.) They can be awkward and difficult but I feel that they can run a decent variety of lists and I'm not sure I agree with the views posted about what needs changing or the suggestions made.

    I am now sorely tempted to field JSA at our local event in a weeks time (so long as I get to play) just to see if the complaints here apply to my local meta. I like most of the units mentioned in this thread. Mushashi may be a difficult one to fit into lists sometimes but his haris team is very solid and the Daiyokai's biggest hurdle to popularity (somewhat similar to Mushashi's) is not being part of the best haris team. Not entirely dissimilar story when it comes to the Shikami there either.

    I'm going to have to start list building again...
     
  10. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    A year ago i would have agreed with you.
     
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  11. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    @REND
    Ill clarify by saying that I do think JSA is playable... I just think they could use a hand.
     
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  12. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    If you are saying that Domaru are correctly costed per CB's formula, I agree that they are. Except I think CB is still overvaluing high melee abilities, especially ones that start in your own deployment zone.
     
  13. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    We live in a meta of minelayer Speculos, core link Kamau and Rui Shi, and soon infiltrating mad traps. And Dart. Freaking Dart.

    Unfortunately for JSA, war has changed.
     
    #33 Weathercock, Jul 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2019
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  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    No, I'm saying I consider them correctly priced according to their performance.

    The Frenzy discount they get is too high, but on melee-heavy units it counteracts the high premium on close combat abilities, often landing them much closer in cost efficiency to other solid units that do not have any discounts such as Zuyong, Nisse, etc (as far as it translates between roles and armies)
     
  15. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    OK, so you do think that melee is overcosted in CB's formula, but since Frenzy gives too much of a discount it evens out.

    Gotcha!
     
  16. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    It could certainly be argued that any problems Domaru have can be associated with the poorer support for them in the rest of the army itself and outdated link team compatibility. But I'd still like to see a solo FD profile, and I'd consider access to a tinbot profile for a HI link to be pretty much mandatory these days.
     
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  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    They don't have the same problem that most HI has since they have Stealth and can walk through a Repeater field most of the time. On the other hand, they don't get to have any hackers tag along with them, either. A Tinbot A wouldn't be too off, but I'd say a KHD on Tanko is more appropriate.

    The potential FD Domaru is called "Shikami" (nearly literally a Domaru's statline), but because of the way CB did Hulang, it's a bit squished in terms of design space (just like how the Hulang is squished and doesn't get the Climb+/Super-Jump it needs to not get completely trapped by medium+ range ARO)
     
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  18. Click2kill

    Click2kill Well-Known Member

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    Just chiming in on Ninjas. Ninjas are also a Yu Jing unit, and if you change the base profile, you change all the Ninjas in every list in the game.

    Now if you think maybe there should be special profiles for JSA, like how Varuna Orcs can get a special Varuna profile, that seems more reasonable.

    Ninjas also don't need smoke. They are strong enough as is for SKs.
     
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  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I mean, they're not as bad as McMurrough. He's definitely too strong for his cost though.
     
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  20. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
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    I have lost all hope JSA will be fixed or some new profiles / units added to make them better. Can't even sell them, people know they are crap.
    I personally think Ninjas are fine. Shikami does need some type of forward deployment, and I wouldn't mind 1W+NWI to make him cheaper. Domaru wildcard for sure and Tanko link options same as Ikari. HRL Ryuken dunno what to do with him, maybe give him normal camo.
    But these are all temporary fixes. CC and Martial Arts need a rework. They cost too much for what they do and JSA suffers because of it immensely.