1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Pano reimagined - Change list

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by AlphaStrike, Dec 23, 2022.

  1. anubis

    anubis sarcastic exaggerator

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2020
    Messages:
    461
    Likes Received:
    1,188
    Funny, how i think the very same of you´re approach to the game: Comments like "I have to field unit XY" together with a statement that you don´t even want or like to play them, tells me way more about how someone wants to play the game. For me that sounds like winning is more important than having fun with a game and units you actually like (or u like winning/good units. Whatever floats your boat)
    But as someone playing MO since N2 in every rework there was: Yes, Teutons are very good units. Are they the only one? No, just the most effective for the cost. Is it possible to run TAG MO? Yes. I did. Is it possible to run Hospitaler Links? Yes, i did. Joan and Mendoza? ofcourse, i did. Succescfully and unsuccesfully. Is it more complicated? Yes, it is. Is it worth it? Defenetly. It´s just a matter of trying and learning, what is possible to achive with the "not most efficient units there are" and what not. Its not "I cannot play anything else". It´s "i don´t want to"

    This.
    There was a time in N3, when Varuna was equivalent to the fusilier/Kamau link, a unit/Fireteam that has become a staple for the whole sector. No one even thought about playing anything else, and there where other options.

    I defenetly see that there are units more efficient than others due to point costs / meta / Mission play / ... The point is, do you want to jump on that train or don´t you? It´s the old GML/Spotlight discussion i have on each and every tournament i went to: No one likes the tactic. nearly everyone plays it. Congrats, you are part of the problem.
     
    AlphaStrike and wafu_vasco like this.
  2. Bignoob

    Bignoob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2022
    Messages:
    170
    Likes Received:
    294
    [QUOTE="Stiopa, post: 448990, member:
    Kamau MSR + Fusiliers was the epitome of defense before fireteam update, and I'd argue that it's still very good right now, if slighly easier to bypass.[/QUOTE]

    Fully agree. Maybe I think my main message isn't clearly formulated.

    I never talked about buffing PanO, because I think they're good enough. I'm talking about:

    1. Making list-making funnier and more diversified.

    Before the FT update Varuna was already very stiff. Now it's even more.

    2. About making PanO a more funny army to play with. Since I'm not necessarily in favour of giving them extra tools, this "funny" aspect could be achieved with making some units and units combination more appealing.
     
    AlphaStrike likes this.
  3. Bignoob

    Bignoob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2022
    Messages:
    170
    Likes Received:
    294
    I see where you're heading to and I definitely agree.

    But I think there's also a middle way between playing GML/Spotlight/pitcher spam just to meta-play and fielding a sub-par list just to have fun.

    Because there's also one thing: PanO doesn't have pitchers, smoke grenades, eclipse, HD+, cheap warbands etc etc. So your army building / play style diversification is already below what other sectorial offer.

    What is then left for PanO that other do not have?

    Should we limit ourselves to the +1BS? Instead, wouldn't it make sense saying:

    "You don't have all the fancy tools, but you've got boatloads of units that you can mix and match the way you want to have diversified FT to match your playstyle and that are still competitve?"

    Because you mention Mendoza, Joan, Tikbalang. Easy... Those are GOOD units. Mendoza can singlehandedly wipe out an entire squad and a Tag. Joan is a powerhouse and the Tik is arguably one of the most cost efficient and versatile PanO tag.

    But most importantly you aren't dismissing my initial point

    You're picking up single / duo models (except Joan that can go in a hospi core). And PanO has a lot of very good of them, and very funny to play with. You could also add in there the KoM or the KotHS for MO.

    But that doesn't dismiss the fact I find Fire teams in PanO to be boring and unfun. Specially Varuna.

    I can't recall the last time I field a Fueurbach Orc, a Curator, Saint Lazarus, a non Infinity Spec ops Order sergeant. Maybe you and I'm too bad at the game to do field them in a meaningful way
     
    #43 Bignoob, Jan 3, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2023
  4. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    4,237
    Likes Received:
    9,554
    @Bignoob I think we're on a similar page when it comes to ends, we simply differ on means needed to achieve them. A few months ago, upon leaving PanO, I posted my own thread on what could be done with the faction, though it was more of a design concept opinion than specific rebalancing ideas. But I see a lot of similar themes floating around every time the subject is brought up again.

    This is why I think we differ about the means; Feuerbach ORC was my first pick for a spearhead Haris, even before HMG. Curator is the only Engineer you can run in MO, a HI-themed sectorial. I can't fathom reasons not to field it, especially if you can include it in a HI fireteam which now can move forward with their own embedded support. Infirmarer is similar, a Doc you can move alongside combat team as you push forward, though I do agree its a poorly designed unit. Order Sergeants bring some very useful tools to the table, like linkable HRL, cheap linkable hacker, Auxbots to guard corners and deny easy entry to your DZ.

    While I fully agree that the goal should be making PanO more fun to play, I'm not sure what constitutes fun for other people, which is why I commented earlier that it's not very probable to achieve any consensus on it in a forum thread ;)
     
    #44 Stiopa, Jan 3, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2023
    Savnock likes this.
  5. Bignoob

    Bignoob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2022
    Messages:
    170
    Likes Received:
    294
    Ok then it means I'm bad at the game :joy: and I should git gud a bit more before digging further
     
  6. Errhile

    Errhile A traveller on the Silk Road

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    2,272
    Likes Received:
    3,915
    Practice, practice, practice. You'll get better.
     
    AlphaStrike, Savnock and Stiopa like this.
  7. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    4,237
    Likes Received:
    9,554
    You should see my beginnings, Errhile handed me my head back quite a lot :P

    Bottom line is, experimenting around is fun, and shows new and sometimes unexpected ways to play. Sometimes subtle differences mean having to change the way to deal with specific tactical situations. A lot of complains - in all the factions, not only PanO - stems from people not accounting for differences between similar units in different factions, with different support options, small differences in unit capabilities, etc.
     
    Savnock and Errhile like this.
  8. AlphaStrike

    AlphaStrike Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2022
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    42
    It might not be something we can reach a unanimous agreement on, however a majority agreement should definitely be possible, due to the statistical probability of panO players having things in common simply because we’re all here playing them at this point in time.

    Regardless any of that— it should definitely be a topic up for discussion; what do panO players thing would be fun for panO. Because as it stands for me personally, I’m itching to get back to CA already and I’m even tempted to proxy Nomads on the side. Why? I’ve already feel I’ve exhausted the limits of panos interest and I’m struggling with the inclination to continue. As I feel like the monotony of the faction is hurting my enjoyment of the game itself.
    So I decided to tally up my own personal list of units I think are fun and interesting from those three factions. I won’t go into detail, but it ended up with this spread:

    CA - 35 units.
    Nomads - 33 units.
    PanO - 18 units.

    I was that shocked I went to scour aleph for the first time, a faction I have no interest in playing, yet I found 26 interesting profiles even there.

    I am certainly glad that the post is picking up interest though!
     
    #48 AlphaStrike, Jan 4, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2023
  9. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    4,237
    Likes Received:
    9,554
    Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely for discussing this, whether we will reach any agreement or not. For one, we might. And such discussions are valuable on their own merits.

    It sounds like you're in a similar spot I was in last year, I didn't have enough fun with the faction, and since I had to control the number of armies I play PanO was the first to give. Although MO was almost enough to make me reconsider, despite any issues I consider their new iteration to be very good.
     
    AlphaStrike and Savnock like this.
  10. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    3,394
    Likes Received:
    4,104
    And at the end of the day, that’s the big thing. If the army isn’t clicking and bringing you enjoyment, take a bit of time away from it.
     
    Savnock, AlphaStrike and Stiopa like this.
  11. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,686
    Likes Received:
    5,510
    Certainly I find sitting their thinking "what if" to be a pretty depressing excercise.

    Its far more fruitful and mentally invigorating to look at new ways to use old tools, or tools that are generally frowned upon/disregarded.

    Not only is it an excercise in itself but it will give you a deeper understanding of the game and improve your skills.

    Lets take the Jotum example.
    Instead of...
    "my Jotum keeps dying to AP therefore I wish it was better against AP."
    Try
    "My Jotum keeps dying to AP, if I include some warbands and/or disposable attack pieces and make killing said AP a priority Round 1, does that give me a better outcome when using my Jotum aggressively rounds 2 and 3?"
     
    Savnock, SpectralOwl, Lesh' and 2 others like this.
  12. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    3,394
    Likes Received:
    4,104
    It is also fun to trot out a troop most folks neglect and see looks of surprise when it hits the table.
     
    Savnock and Stiopa like this.
  13. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    4,237
    Likes Received:
    9,554
    Absolutely :smiling_imp:

    This ties into what I've been saying earlier; there are more or less subtle differences between similar units in different armies and their support structures, and this has implications about the best ways to utilize them.

    Another topic, one between "what if" and discussing tactics: Foreign Company and White Company both use PanO units, and I've seen them often described (WC more often) as unofficial PanO sectorials. Many people (hell, myself included), move there for "PanO, but fun" vibe. So what exactly are they doing better than the faction does, and how can it be emulated using tools that PanO has right now, as they are? I'm not talking about translating this 1 to 1, of course; I'm just wondering, if some of their capabilities are present in PanO, but get overlooked for one reason or another.
     
    Savnock likes this.
  14. AlphaStrike

    AlphaStrike Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2022
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    42
    Wow you really are ride or die on my inclusion of the Jotum on this list, huh.
    Yes that is how the game works, now can we just take a step back away from presumptions of my gameplay and keep to the topic?

    Because that doesn’t dispute the point I was making. Statistical math isn’t on the side of the Jotum. When armour is your entire thing, statistical math is where your strength should lie.

    ‘I know you are deathly allergic to peanuts, but if you chase them with epinephrine you will be fine!’ —said no one ever.

    Sometimes you have to exclude external factors and view something in its own essence, otherwise you end up jaded to any problems.
     
  15. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    3,394
    Likes Received:
    4,104
    To be honest, part of it is likely the Intrwebz, where if a unit doesn’t scream “THIS IS WHAT I’M FOR!!!” folks overlook it.

    I think part is the downside of the “hive mind”. We can get locked in and miss the forest for the trees.
     
    Savnock likes this.
  16. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    4,237
    Likes Received:
    9,554
    @AlphaStrike Jotum is a wrong hill to fight for, it's incredibly hard brick of a unit, even against AP HMGs it'll resist 2/3 of the shots that might get through it's own MHMG and BS 15. Sure, dedicated assault will kill it, but not fast, and making your opponent lose whole turn in exchange for a single, even expensive, unit is a very good deal. Making it's primary counter to be ineffective will lead to a less interactive game. If you're concerned about it's survivability plan Jotum's support around it and go after opponent's AP weapons first. PanO has tools to do it. TAG lists are all about combined arms approach. And it's impossible to discuss this without going into our gameplay styles and tactical solutions, because, contrary to what many people think, Infinity isn't a statistical game, but a tactical and chance one.
     
    Savnock, anubis and A Mão Esquerda like this.
  17. Dyne

    Dyne Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    303
    Likes Received:
    251
    I'm not agree with @Stiopa and @daboarder. A Jotum costs 29% of a list and units like Libertos, Rokots, Besthunters can embarrass him with at a ridiculous cost, and we're not talking about more decent stuff like Uma, Linyx or Dart. Of course, as you say, the solution is to use warbands to kill them on the first turn, but PanO has no real warbands, no smoke and no white noise to help with the task, and of course our rival also plays... Infinity is a tactical game but statistics are basic, you never win a tournament with a full fusilier list.
     
  18. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2017
    Messages:
    4,237
    Likes Received:
    9,554
    While these units are good and were often complained about on the forums for being undercosted, they really don't pose that much of a threat, especially those without long range weapons. It takes quite a few orders to reach range at which, say, SMG will be viable, and then you're basically talking a lot of shit for someone in HFT range. And if you've allowed dedicated anti-armor weapons to reach your TAG unmolested, that's on you for either deploying it too openly, not screening it properly - which, again, PanO has tools to do - or both. That's why I'm talking about TAG lists having to be about combined arms, people who expect TAGs to be able to attack and defend all by themselves are bound to be disappointed, like Russians advacing into Grozny on 1994/1995 New Year's Eve with tanks without proper infantry screen. Support. Your. TAGs. Sure, 80/90 point model is a centerpiece, but won't win games by itself.

    As for the tools to take out opposing AP - who said it's only warbands? Paratroopers, infiltrators, remotes - not to mention the TAG itself, if it's your own active turn and you can rely on superior burst - these tools are there. Again, if you plan on using TAGs, you need to construct the list around it, unless it's one of the cheap ones.
     
    #58 Stiopa, Jan 5, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2023
  19. QuantronicWombat

    QuantronicWombat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2021
    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    60
    White Company has the things that people wish PanO had (or at least covet from other factions). WC has strong hackers (Danavas, Valerya), sought after weapons & equipment (smoke grenades from the Varangian, pitcher from the Danavas), and affordable warbands (Varangian). They also have some well optimized units (Tiger Soldiers, Karhu, Peacemaker), and interesting fireteam options. I think some people also switched from PanO to O-12 for similar reasons.

    In turn, White Company gives up super elite units like the Swiss Guard and Cutter or very rare equipment like MSV 3.

    What makes White Company seem more fun, I think, is that all the things above make for a more interactive and involved gaming experience. White Company can do all the things. Want to hack? Go for it! Your hackers are fragile, but they're extremely competent and you have the tools to build a robust network. Want to whack something with a sword? The Varangian can lay down the smoke for melee monsters like Shona, but is also cheap enough to sacrifice for risky (but fun!) melee plays. Want to boop buttons well? You've got a few WIP 14 specialists who can sneak up to consoles.

    PanO's obsessive focus with winning shootouts at the cost of everything makes it feel like it's a waste of time to do anything but shoot people. You've basically got 80 flavours of "point and shoot" units.
     
    AlphaStrike and Savnock like this.
  20. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2017
    Messages:
    1,555
    Likes Received:
    2,619
    Bits of this thread would make an excellent base for a post about “how to write a wishlist/change request post effectively… and also what NOT to do.”
     
    daboarder and anubis like this.
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation