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PanO reimagined

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Stiopa, Apr 2, 2022.

  1. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    Last month I finally decided to sell my PanO force. I was on the fence about this for a long time now, but, having a finite amount of time for gaming and a few other armies to play, something had to give. And the fact was that for me PanO simply stopped being fun to play.

    Don't get me wrong; from the balance perspective I think it's a good, strong army. It has a lot going for it in every mechanical aspect of the game, but for me personally it lacks the fun factor, and many of the changes and additions the faction received over the past few years feel not thought out very well. Uma's first iteration, Boyg being of questionable usefulness, bland (Bipandra, Quinn) or overstuffed (Gunnar, Mendoza) characters, weird limitations, like Black Friar sniper still unable to link, general changes to other factions resulting in PanO losing its edge in areas like standard shooting and TAGs, while not picking up anything new to define them - I'm sure everyone can find something to add to the list. As I've stated before, I feel that while designers can do right by PanO when it comes to balance, they aren't as passionate about it as about other factions. And while there are things that bode well, like successful Bolt revamp, or new MO being much more interesting, I think I'll have more fun playing and expanding other factions I own.

    But I'm not planning to complain more about it. I wanted this farewell to be a fairly comprehensive list of my ideas about PanO as a faction - what it should or shouldn't have access to, how it should work, and why.

    Themes which in my opinion should define PanO:
    • Specialization
    • Firepower
    • TAGs
    • Technology integration
    • Focus on regular warfare
    Specialization is the first thing I'd like to touch upon, because it'll have its impact on all the following themes, and because I want to talk about limitations first. To put it shortly; PanO units should be more specialized and focused in their roles, being slightly better in their main roles when comparing them to units in other factions 1 to 1, but less capable in performing outside those roles. This means less access to secondary weapons and skills not contributing to unit's pimary role than other factions' units might have. It also means toolbox units being few, far between, and restricted in their application by pricing, vulnerabilities and linking options. End result should be the need to coordinate a higher number of different units than other factions to contribute to a similar battle plan. This should also mean that PanO units shouldn't be too similar to each other - they should have clear roles, and should those roles partially overlap with other units', their kits should push them into clearly different ways of performing in this role.

    This specialization should also carry to the unit loadout level, with additional equipment and skills being more often an option within the unit, not necessarily a unit-wide upgrade. This should be used to further tailor choices as being geared towards a specific role and capability in this role. Additional bonus of this approach is that it would allow to give some more interesting toys here and there without increasing overall power level as much as unit-wide access would do.

    And finally, this specialization should also affect fireteam composition. PanO fireteams should have a clear role, and allowing them to perform outside it should require bringing in wildcards and breaking composition.

    Firepower was PanO's thing from the beginning, usually taking form of BS level slightly above average for units of a given type. This was more impactful before N3, because back then higher attribute was a tie breaker - so in standard BS FtF roll PanO had an additional edge over its opponents. This focus on making PanO better in the single most impactful area of the game was the source of Bostria's famous "PanO was a mistake" comment. Since that time the field got more level, with other factions getting in the high BS game, and cutting the tie breaker rule making the advantage of +1 BS less pronounced. But in N4 CB introduced new ways of improving an aspect of a game, and with a much greater flexibity. I believe that PanO's predilection for peace through superior firepower should be defined less by its BS score, and more by its access to skills modifying BS, modified and improved weapons, as well as access to visors.

    In practical terms this should mean access to additional weapon choices in unusual places (example would be a Fusilier loadout with a Multi Rifle), reflecting the saturation of PanO forces with hi-tech weaponry. It should mean a number of BS Attack skill modifiers - +1 Damage, additional hit effects - given to specific loadouts, indicating a slightly better weapons (for example +1 Dam attached to a Marksman Rifle), or additional, specialized training (for example the same +1 Dam, but attached to a loadout, and affecting all weapons). The same is true for a few other BS-specific skills - like Marksmanship, or Triangulated Fire - and for visors. X-visor in particular is a piece of equipment PanO should be making use of more often. It should mean seeing weapons like Multi Marksman Rifle or Breaker Combi more often, and slightly lower in the roster, than one would expect. In general there's a lot of cool things that can be done now, that enchancements can be applied directly to weapons. We already saw CB doing this in other armies, and PanO would be a natural place for some advanced concepts. Smartgun (Spitfire with Marksmanship)? Assault Shotgun (BSG with +1 B)? And should CB finally introduce Multi Spitfire, it should show up on a PanO TAG or SHI first.

    One important thing is that most of such tweaks should be directed towards long range firefight. Most PanO units should feel less confident in CQB. One exception would be MO units, especially knights, but those are mostly confined in their own sectorial and available to others in small doses. This should also contribute to the specialization I was talking about before; PanO shooter should be a deadly opponent at long range, but should require screening from close range fighters by a dedicated unit.

    In short, PanO should be designed to go for the throat first, and start working on objectives later in the game; it should do so by keeping open fire lanes, negating opposing forces' modifiers via use of visors, marksmanship, and other BS-modifying skills and upgraded weaponry, and establishing fire dominance.

    TAGs are a pretty straightforward theme - PanO was always a TAG faction, meaning that we had the largest variety of them. Our TAGs should also be the most optimized for their cost, with little to no bloat. This doesn't mean they should be the best; this should be the thing of more elite factions, like Aleph, CA, or O-12, representing fielding the pinnacle of technology, but in small numbers. PanO is fielding the largest armies of the Human Sphere, so it should care most about cost/benefit ratios, mass production, and common sense practicality.

    The theme of specialization should obviously continue here as well, but PanO is already in a good place TAG-wise. Squalo is the well-rounded Jack of all trades; Dragao is more focused on pure active turn fire superiority, Jotum is a brick (personally I'd even decrease its chance to Dodge in exchange for immunity to crits), Cutter and Seraph both have their gimmick, while Tik and Uhlan are more hunter-killers of a different variety. Yes, PanO TAGs are nice.

    Technology integration is a concept which would allow to differ PanO from other hi-tech factions, and use fluff for in-game mechanics application. It boils down to two things. First, when PanO Military Complex is faced with a problem, it seeks a technology-based solution to it, as opposed to looking for a human-based answer. It doesn't necessarily train a better soldier, it builds a new tool. Second, PanO doesn't enchance their soldiers in a way Aleph or CA might. While the latter build more elite lhosts or employ VoodooTech, and blur the line between living and artificial, PanO gives their people more toys. Instead of wasting time to train and modify a supersoldier, PanO command gives him a smartgun and an Auxbot, and routinely utilizes Remotes as part of fireteams.

    In terms of game mechanics it should mean that in PanO armies enchanced capabilities are more often than in other factions tied to weapons and other tech tools, like Remotes. It means that all PanO Remotes should be allowed into one or more fireteams - Core included - and that it should be mostly Remotes which should receive traits allowing for a fully integrated fireteam. When a soldier Wildcard joins a team he's most often a new element, but those teams work alongside Remotes all the time. This would allow teams to drag their own recon with them, have a dedicated machine as a pointman or corner guard, non-Camo midfield troops would be able to use Peacemaker as their close backup, and PanO Repeater coverage - while remaining limited, due to lack of Pitchers - would improve a bit. Some Remotes should obviously be more restricted in their linkability than others, Sierra comes to mind, but it should still be allowed into dedicated defensive Haris teams.

    Next, Auxbots. These were originally one of mainly PanO tools, and the fact that their concept wasn't expanded upon is regrettable. Auxbot can do so much more than be a disposable flamethrower, and we've seen it in Guarda de Assalto units. Multiple PanO units should get access to an Auxbot built to enchance their role. Recon Auxbots, spotters, sharpshooter drones, electronic warfare platforms, SWAT bots - the possibilities are legion. And Auxilia could get access to most if not all of them, making them play a larger part in Neoterra, while remaining less well trained a soldier than even Fusiliers. Another example of enchancing a soldier by giving him tools, not skills.

    edit: one additional thing struck me just now. While PanO shouldn't be a hacking powerhouse, it should have more, and very good, RemDrivers.

    Focus on regular warfare is another PanO limitation that has been around forever, and it should stay that way. PanO armies are professional military forces. This means very few Irregular units, and no standard warbands - there's no place for untrained and uncontrollable rabble in the chain of command. Teutons, as HI warbands, should be the exception (and another example of PanO using hi tech solutions to tactical problems). This also means that there should be almost no units below 10 pts, where the point formula starts to be wonky and sometimes results in units that punch far above their weight. Helots and Tech Bee are fine.

    PanO being a regular - and firepower-oriented - military means also that their first solution to a problem is to shoot it. This sets up a gamestyle that actually works well from both the point of fluff and game flow - PanO isn't as able as other factions to go for the objectives from the get go. Instead they need to establish fire superiority over the key areas, to allow their less mobile or capable specialists to work in peace. Consequently, PanO's capacity for asymmetric warfare, including infowar, should be lacking in comparison to more rounded factions. One exception I see is in the access to strategic hacking, namely EVO access; it represents established link between forces in the field and computing centers outside it, and this is exactly the kind of hacking PanO could be strong in - running multiple supportware to boost its tech-based units. Should PanO ever get a dedicated hacker infantry in vein of Danava or Dartok, it should have EVO option with Zero Pain thrown in.

    This also means that, aside from a few select units, PanO has little use for Smoke. The idea is that the faction has better odds in a straight up firefight than others, so it wants to keep those fire lanes open. Some homeopatic access to Eclipse would be ok, and the way it was done with Guarda de Assalto is good; when getting such unusual - for PanO - tools, they should require investing in a sophisticated (and probably expensive) unit as its platform. Boyg is a good example of such a platform; it has a good stat block, is an expensive unit to field, and could really use some tools to make it differ more from Knight of Justice. Hidden Deployment without Mimetism and Camo would fit it great, especially given its name.

    And last but not least, PanO should make more use of the "sectorialized" standard units. I believe Varuna and Svalarheima ORC variants to be a good template, one that should be applied to some more units (Fusiliers and Armbots are first that come to mind). The number of PanO sectorials means that its vanilla is getting oversaturated with new units, while at the same time every sectorial feels like its a completely separate beast from the others. It's ok for MO, because it is a separate beast, essentially a religious PMC. But the rest should feel more like different branches of a unified military force. Inclusion of ORCs throughout the sectorials instead of inventing a separate HI for each really helps in this regard, and I'd like to see an MI unit used the same way - a common platform custom fitted for different jobs in different sectorials, while still sharing basic characteristics.

    --------------------------------------------------

    That's about it. I hope this won't read as some kind of a blatant wishlist, especially since I'm describing a faction I'm leaving behind. I still hope that designers will be able to do right by it from the point of fun factor. Happy hunting!
     
    #1 Stiopa, Apr 2, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2022
  2. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    Good vision statement.
     
  3. Blindcrow

    Blindcrow Member

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    Very nice vision and would be awesome to see CB do something along those lines. Few nitpicks:

    I believe you meant Varuna, not Acon? I don't see Orc options for Acon

    We kind of already have one. MMR on KotHS CoC with B+1 and dmg+1 is nearly Multi Spitfire and I start to love that profile
     
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  4. Thule

    Thule Active Member

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    While I’m not selling my PanO, I mostly keep them because of how familiar I am with the army; I’m pivoting hard towards ALEPH these days, and PanO feels uninspired nowadays. Also, the design decision that the shoulder-mounted panzerfausts are actually PanO’s MSVs still makes me annoyed everytime I pull out my teutons or Kamau.


    I would LOVE to See CB make a PanO like you’ve described, because right now, it definitel
     
  5. Cadmo

    Cadmo Well-Known Member

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    I think we all agree with the current state of Panoceania, and it's sad.

    For my part, I can say that I have practically the entire collection that CB has released forthe 5 PanO sectorial. Today I don't know what to play. It has been so disappointing that I stopped playing for 8 months.

    Since the departure of N4, PanO has been in no man's land. Winterforce is really poor and Military Orders although it is in better position, I think shares the design problems of all PanO, like "the fallacy of the best BS". And we see the current changes and there are still nerfs for all PanO sectorials.

    It is curious how all the armies acquire troops with BS13, mimetism, even visors and now TAGs, arguing the evolution of the story, but PanO still doesn’t have good engineers and support in general, and really bad units in the middle of the table.

    I think keeping composition bonuses in fireteams could be an option in line with PanO's design, or the idea of X visors or marksmanship on more troops, and all of the thing that Stiopa pointing very well. There are a ton of options but I just think there's no real focus on Panoceania. My advice, although sad, can be effective, you have to play other factions to have more entertaining games.

    My personal option has been White Company.

    White Company for me is what a PanO sectorial should be. The philosophy is the same, professional army, firepower and lots of technology. While at first glance WhiteCo doesn't have anything spectacular, it is an extremely versatile and efficient army that can do any ITS mission (something that no sectorial of PanO can do). You sacrifice a bit of firepower and HIs, to have access to a number of visors, camos, great AD, good ARO, and excellent mid-table, engineers, etc... And you also cover PanO's weaknesses, since you have warbands, cool linkable melee profiles, smoke and a very competent hacking network with PanO remotes plus hackers like the Danavas, Valeria, guilang, among others.

    Without shining individually, White Company is a sectorial that has shown me the best PanO philosophy. Even in John Hawkwood's story you can reflect the frustration of identifying with PanO.
     
  6. burlesford

    burlesford Sheet guy

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    @Stiopa You get my vote. Love this. Hope CB takes notes.
     
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  7. Azakel

    Azakel Active Member

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    So sad and so true, we'll miss you @Stiopa
     
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  8. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    Pan O stands for high BS and low WIP. But the low WIP is not good to represent the state of the high tech, that Pan O should be. The fact, that their TAGs are REM (or have the skill) helps the humble Mechanist to repair their high-tech robomate, but is still feels odd, that you have to roll on 12. This could be easily fixed by "engineer plus". This skill is already invited with Parvati. It will make Mechnist more expensive, but it could represent that they actualy make their homework, while they still struggle to switch on an antenna on a 12 - but this is their game-balancing downside.

    For the Traumdoc its not so easy, because they will intervene into Haqqislam terretoriy. Rolling for WIP is old school doctoring, hight tech means firing high efficential nano-driven mini-medi-missiles into the vic...patient. Fix that with B2 Medikits for Pan Doctors! First step of Pan O representing highest tech in the game is done :nerd_face:
     
    #8 archon, Apr 3, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2023
  9. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    It is curious to see how many players agree mostly in how the faction feels, and what coul be done to "give it a little level up". Some ideas @Stiopa wrote was said by another Pano player and myself in Youtube a couple of weeks ago, I didn't think even that @Stiopa saw the video because it was in spanish and probably, if he would do it, for sure would left a coment. So many agreement on where the Pano fails in general and some options to fixed should be of great concern.

    Best regards.

    PS. If you can understand spanish I let you here the link, in case you were curious about:
     
  10. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    @Urobros Unfortunately I don't know spanish, and I didn't know about the video. But I'll check how much automatic translation is worth. Thanks for posting it! ;)
     
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  11. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    They way first PanO (both) S5 unit was implemented doesn't bore a good future for PanO design space.

    But hey, we've been running in circles and repeating this same mantra (problematic/lack of PanO design space) since how many years now ? 5 ?

    And that was even before O12 times ......
     
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  12. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Go and check the newest Curator engineer ^^

    So new and great design of rules! (actual model is quite ok for what it is)
     
  13. Thule

    Thule Active Member

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    I might be missing something, but when I check their profile, the Curators are just WIP12 machinists with AP mines. Not sure what you mean.
     
  14. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    That's the point.
    Lack of anything which was said above.
     
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  15. jake richmond

    jake richmond Well-Known Member

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    I agree with so much of this.

    In older Infinity (N2, early N3) it seemed like the best designed units (by which I mean, the ones that were effective but still balanced) were either:

    - Very specialized, but very good at one thing. Not particularly good at anything else.

    - Versatile, making them good in many situations, but not quite as good as more specialized units.

    - A broad toolbox that could do a lot but had very obvious shortcomings.

    Pan O units usually fit in the first category. What I've noticed in recent years is that other armies' units that fit into the second and third category often have been improved to directly compete against units in the first category. However units in the first category haven't changed much.
     
  16. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Problem is that now even Nomads (theoretical anathema to specialization) have super-specialized units in their roster in all categories (Kriza, HollowMen, various warbands) on top of their broad selection of toys and tools.

    Noone should give a fuck about some random engineer being able to join some fireteams while other factions have uber-enginner wildcard characters with tons of options (compared to PanO's "flavor of regular engineer").
     
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  17. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead

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    Well, when putting up the original list I was thinking about adding survivability to it as well - paying homage to approach to warfare which puts emphasis on preserving life of one's personnel. This feels like something that would fit PanO well, even if it's inspired by seeing a proper combat paramedic like Rindak. It'd be fun to see a similar unit in PanO, and a version with a Gizmokit, too. Not really a specialist, but a unit tasked with and focused on keeping other units in fighting shape, and without being as widespread as top quality Doctors are in Haqq.

    This is actually what a proper Tech Bee could be. I like the current version much more than I liked the abomination that it was at release, but it's still not as interesting or useful as it could be.
     
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  18. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    You mean its a missed opportuinity to bring a fresh engineer unit, that actualy does some engineering?

    Then I agree. In MO - it has a) a namechange and b) CC+2 but at least its for free, last time I checked (yes the MO Mechanist also had mines). The Curator is available in SWF too (seems to be Hospitaller Orden) and adds the following IMO: A realy nice mini, a third engineer and an option to put some mines on the table, when you have 17 spare points. The normal to go option for winter engineers brings mime-3 and is cheap filler for Nisse fireteams - much more value.
     
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  19. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    I had a quick look at the Rindak - cool and effective unit. But for the normal Doc/Eng role its too expansive. In some way this is what the Infirmarer could be. CC cabable healing unit, with better surviveabilty then the usual 1 W guys. Can heal in the sick of the battle on the frontline.

    Apropos: With the new FT rules it is now clear, that the Boyg was planned from the beginning as a B3 ML unit with high BS that can repel attackers in CC :innocent:
     
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  20. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Exactly.

    Not to mention that Bostira mentioned something about "2 profiles for Curators", but this (2nd profile) apparently went the way of Dodo and Hawkin's Berserk ^^
     
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