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O-Yoroi vs Karakuri Haris

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by Quickit, Aug 2, 2021.

  1. Quickit

    Quickit Well-Known Member

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    I tend to build my list by starting with a hard hitting unit that will be the unit to push forward turn one and do as much damage as possible, or to take on a hard ARO unit.

    My two go-to units for JSA are the O-Yoroi and Karakuri.

    O-Yoroi - 75 points

    Pros:

    - ARM 7
    - DAM16 AP HMG with BS14 can engage units at +3 right from the deployment zone, and hits like a ton of bricks.
    - Koalas
    - Stealth which allows him to ignore repeater nets.
    - CC21/MA2 and a PH17 EXP close combat weapon, which should scare off all but the most dedicated CC troops
    -Tactical Awareness, so one extra order in the pool.

    Cons:

    - Big target, so hard to get total cover
    - less likely to be hacked (Stealth), but still hackable, and several programs are dangerous to TAGs
    - Still susceptible to big weapons, EXP, Mono, Adhesive, Stun, E/M, etc. This is what really sets these two units apart...
    - 2 SWC


    Karakuri Haris (Mk12, Multi Rifle, and Yuriko with E-mitter) - 111 points

    Pros:

    - Total Immunity. This is what makes the unit. Mitigating big weapons like EXP, flamers, viral, DA, Mono, etc., as ordinary weapons is amazing.. And being able to completely ignore Adhesive, Forward Observer, flash pulse, Stun, E/M, etc, is just incredible. In a game where even 40-50 point units can be taken out with a lucky hit, these things are like Terminators, they just keep coming.
    -3 STR and Remote Presence gives these units a lot of staying power, and they can't be taken out with one good hit from big gun.
    - Panzerfausts give them something threatening if a big target tries to fight them.
    - Specialists.
    - They can also FO or flash pulse. Move into LOF of something, FO it, take the ARO, then hose it down with the target now being targeted.
    - With Yuriko in the Haris, they can be repaired as well. So if one goes down to 0 or -1 STR, they can be repaired with a 60% chance roll.
    - Chain rifle for up close.
    - S2, so easier to hide
    - Yuriko brings mines and an E/Mitter
    - B2 in ARO with the link.

    Cons:

    - Mk12 is not a DAM16 AP HMG. It hits hard, but not that hard.. You still have B4 in the Haris, but if the Haris breaks, you drop to B3.
    - 36 points more than the TAG.
    - Yuriko is a weak link in the Haris. If someone snipes her out, the link bonuses are lost, and the Engineer skill is lost for repairing the Karakuris.


    What do you use as your first turn hammer unit?
     
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  2. WiT?

    WiT? Well-Known Member

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    I dunno, just struggle to see Karikuri as a "first turn hammer". They are more of a tanky multirole specialist.

    When I played JSA (way back), the ideal alpha piece was one of the superior deployment Ninjas.
     
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  3. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

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    If you want a gunfighter, o-yoroi all the way baby. Karakuri are ace, but they are easy to fox in a gunfight with visual mods or high armour, especially as they can't really outrange anyone with that mk12
     
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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    O-Yoroi pilot is a specialist and a heavy flamer at DAM 15. It's not nitpicking, truly, those are two very important aspects of the O-Yoroi (and most TAGs) that are easy to miss
     
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  5. Fed4ykin

    Fed4ykin Well-Known Member

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    i tend to take one Karakuri, yuriko and a Domaru for the Haris the domaru is a beast in CC and mitigates that the karakuri is a wet papertowel in CC. As well he is cheaper than a second Karakuri. for Alpha striking Oniwaban or Shinobu.
    For hard AROs coordinated orders wuit MLs, Panzerfausts and Blitzens, if i can´t get there with an Assassin.
     
  6. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer
    Warcor

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    I tend to use Karakuri as a solo piece. I think the Haris is a bit of a trap, but only because JSA's cores FT outshine what the Karakuri Haris can bring. As a solo piece (specially the Mk12, although I have a soft spot for the Multi Rifle when the mission deployment zone is 16" deep), Karakuri is very solid, they have a scary ARO weapon, they can clear firelanes of overwatch units because of their resilience.
    They are really excellent T2-T3 objective grabbers.

    The O-Yoroi is our best gunfighter. It packs one of the three HMGs that we have access to and that's really, really precious. It's also quite a monster in CC and has a HFT as well as the Koalas together with Stealth, to protect it from WBs and Hackers. So, a good gunfighter that protects itself from the most common units made to take care of TAGs. Karakuri do struggle against both WBs and Hackers.

    All in all, for me: O-Yoroi before Karakuri Haris, always. But a Karakuri solo piece can be a budget O-Yoroi to cram more juicy units in the rest of the list.
     
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  7. Quickit

    Quickit Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I'm overestimating what Total Immunity is good for. I got a total of two N4 games in before the pandemic, so I don't have experience on the tabletop. It just feels like even if it's not in a +3 range, I can simply advance through ARO's while putting down lots of shots from the Mk12. Panzerfausts for hard targets, and Chain Rifles for skirmishers and WB. The O-Yoroi still needs to be cautious of missiles, E/M, Flash Pulses, etc.

    As for Ninjas, I definitely consider them more of a scalpel than a hammer.

    Getting out of the TAG to use the pilot as a Specialist is always a last resort, I don't even think of the unit as that. It's just too risky....

    DAM 15 HFT is great, but B2 Chain Rifle is solid as well, I wouldn't want to get hit with either of them.
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    When you're getting out of the TAG to push buttons, you can use the TAG for cover as the TAG itself won't be activated by the order. You should never, except for last resorts, attempt to push buttons where you can potentially get under fire. Yes, it's awkward, but perfectly doable and not much more order inefficient considering the TAG's increased ability to get around fast.
    Neither Karakuri nor TAG pilot are what I'd primarily use for specialists, given their roles typically making them incompatible as such, but the possibility is there for both of them such that I wouldn't call it an advantage over the other.

    Karakuri and O-Yoroi are differently durable. Due to the low ARM of the Karakuri, I wouldn't advance out of cover unless I'm going for a last resort kind of thing. Additionally, considering how common full Cores are they are threatened by light arms fire in a very real way - the same fire that I'd not hesitate to expose an O-Yoroi to if it is a low amount of it and I can save orders doing so. ARM 7 vs ARM 3 immunity does that.

    On the positive side, Karakuri are more durable versus hacking than O-Yoroi thanks to being really good at soaking guided missiles, while an O-Yoroi really has to respect hacking in a way the Karakuri doesn't. Generally speaking I'd not necessarily pitch these two against each other, they belong to different play styles.

    Just to throw you a curveball, have you considered comparing Karakuri to Daiyokai?
     
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  9. Quickit

    Quickit Well-Known Member

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    I hadn't thought of comparing those two. As a single unit, I'd still be tempted to go with the Karakuri. Template weapon and specialist on top of TI makes a more complete unit. The only part that the Daiyokai has is his CC threat and Stealth to avoid hacking. I'll take a Daiyokai with a pair of Domaru as a reasonable B5 gun Haris with backup CC threat, but I think the Karakuri link is still better. Add a Domaru to two Karakuri if CC threats are a concern.
     
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  10. Firellon

    Firellon Optimising underdogs

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    Well, truth to be told, JSA isn't about hard-hitting ranged units all that much. If you get to encounter that infamous linked Kamau Sniper or a TO Camo Sniper (like Lynx), or even a TR Bot boosted with Marksmanship (especially CA one) - you won't have it easy regardless if you take it on with O-Yoroi or Karakuri Haris - both providing flat BS13-14 shooting without any modifiers to stack the odds in your favour. Unfortunately, we can't get a decent HMG here and it's better not to treat it as something we should do in the first place.

    What JSA player should learn instead is to deal with threats on his own terms rather than head-on: smoke whatever cannot see through it, use Kitsune/Oniwaban to get into a favourable range from the get-go, put a surprise HRL blast with your Ryuken-9, absolutely smash them in CC with your cheap, fast and efficient Domarus, put a Krazy Coala on them using Yojimbo, maybe coordinated order Blitzens/Flammenspeers with your Tankos, etc.

    If you'd like to go with the hammer-like approach, you better search somewhere else, like in Pano, O-12 or Yu Jing.
     
  11. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Random thought, it would be neat for the Oyoroi to be turned into a RemPres TAG when they resculpt it. And if it look like a giant Oni or Tengu
     
  12. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    I dunno, O-Yoroi and Karakuri have worked well as hammers for me in the past. Just detail 2-3 Engineer orders to fix it afterwards.it’s inefficient, but sometimes the only solution to a really well-defended castled sniper.
     
  13. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Also nb, fixing your STR-based hammer units during a killing spree tends to demoralize some opponents who see the full-strength obstacles rather than the erosion of your order pool. That can be useful in competitive play but might need to be handled carefully during friendly play, especially against noobs. If they despair, point out the order investment.
     
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