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Not filling out full SWC?

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by Brence, Mar 23, 2018.

  1. Brence

    Brence New Member

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    Hey guys, I have been toying around with JSA listst based on my initial purchases:

    - JSA Box
    - Shikami
    - Ninja’s

    Basicly fielding everything “out of the box” with a Ninja with Tactical Bow and a Shikami with Contender and Nimbus ‘nades. I get to about 4/5 SWC depending on my Lt. choice.

    So my question is: am I missing out on heavy firepower not getting to the full 6 SWC allowance? Or is this not that big of a deal?
    #nooblistbuilding
     
    #1 Brence, Mar 23, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
  2. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Yes. You should try to fill it out as much as you can. The Tanko missile launchers will be very useful for this, as well as the Husong/Rui Shi (which now eat a ton of SWC.) Alternatively play the double missile Keisotsu link and Daiyokai Red Fury. Add the two Ryuken and that's six.
     
  3. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

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    Not maxing SWC?

    Every list I've made is 6 SWC and still feels massively undergunned. The 1.5 SWC Rui Shi, and .5 SWC Ryuken-9 SMGs just mean my SWC is gone before I even get started.

    PanO spoils me.
     
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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    So, basically, JSA has gone from low SWC to high SWC army
     
  5. REND

    REND Well-Known Member

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    I think filling out your SWC allowance is a matter of personal preference myself. I always used to find that I didn't use up all my SWC when building JSA lists and although it's easier to burn through them now I still feel able to write a list that only uses 4-5 SWC and has all the tools I want in there.

    It just comes down to what you believe you need in a list and what models you want to play. If things like the rui shi and/or husong along with some long range guns like HMGs and missile/rocket launchers then you can feel very strapped for points quickly. A haris team of karakuri, ninjas (including oniwaban & Shinobu) as the core of a list will use up very little. If you are worried that you are missing something by not spending all the SWC allowance then review your list and think about what weapon swaps would help the list and use up the spare SWC.

    Play some games with the list, review how it played and think about what, if any changes might help it.
     
  6. fatRat

    fatRat Member

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    what do the lists look like?
     
  7. Brence

    Brence New Member

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    [​IMG] JSA──────────────────────────────────────────────────GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]7 [​IMG]1[​IMG] KEISOTSU Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 9)[​IMG] KEISOTSU Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)[​IMG] KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)[​IMG] KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)[​IMG] KEMPEI (Multispectral Visor L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)[​IMG] KUROSHI RIDER Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Breaker Pistol, AP + Shock CCW. (0 | 33)[​IMG] NINJA Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 26)GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5 [​IMG] DAIYŌKAI Red Fury, Panzerfaust / Pistol, DA CC Weapon, AP CC Weapon. (1 | 49)[​IMG] SHIKAMI Contender, Nimbus Grenades / Assault Pistol, DA CCW, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 45)[​IMG] RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24)[​IMG] RYŪKEN (CH: Limited Camouflage) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Antipersonnel Mines / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 23)[​IMG] ONIWABAN Submachine Gun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (0 | 37) 5 SWC | 300 PointsOpen in Infinity Army

    Group 1 holds the Keisotsu + Kempei fireteam.
     
  8. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    What is this list going to do with 5 orders in each group when a strategic command token gets used against it? Especially group 2, you have one Hidden Deployment, the greediest specialist in JSA and the main attack piece.

    I rearranged -- if you proxy the Kaizoku for an additional Kempeitai, you instead get:

    [​IMG] JSA
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] DAIYŌKAI Red Fury, Panzerfaust / Pistol, DA CC Weapon, AP CC Weapon. (1 | 49)
    [​IMG] KUROSHI RIDER Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Breaker Pistol, AP + Shock CCW. (0 | 33)
    [​IMG] ONIWABAN Submachine Gun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (0 | 37)
    [​IMG] SHIKAMI Contender, Nimbus Grenades / Assault Pistol, DA CCW, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 45)
    [​IMG] KEMPEI (Multispectral Visor L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    [​IMG] KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
    [​IMG] KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14)
    [​IMG] KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14)
    [​IMG] KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    [​IMG] RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    I'll preface by saying I'm still not a huge fan -- it's too many guns and not enough bullets, if you get what I mean, as the Shikami, Oniwaban, Daiyokai, Kuroshi Rider and MSV2 Kempei will be fighting for orders. I would probably deploy the Oniwaban to go kill their big active turn gun or ARO piece, and save one last order to place him and the ODD Ryuken into suppressive (along with whoever else) as a coordinated order. The Kuroshi rider can just go suicide run if she has a chance since there's CoC now, and the Daiyokai can start clearing up the field on turns 2 and 3. You're still going to get strategic command tokened if you go first, but at least you have 8 orders this way.

    It feels like with the pieces you have now its hard to play an elite 10 order list or to go play full swarm. Most configurations I tried ended with a full combat group at about 260-70 points, or went way over to get above 12 orders.
     
    #8 meikyoushisui, Mar 24, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2018
    Brence likes this.
  9. Brence

    Brence New Member

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    Thabk you! As said it’s my first list building with both JSA and to be frank, Infinity also :).

    I thought that group one would keep pretty much in line with orders due to the fact that the Fireteam would not swallow lots of orders due to their combined nature.

    Thanks for the advice though! I am tempted to add Domaru to get some more Fireteam flexibilities.
     
  10. fatRat

    fatRat Member

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    When you are just starting out with infinity the best purchases(i think) are Some remotes(tr bot=Husong and sniffer bot) and Jojimbo. Jojimbo is the only outo include in jsa you will see why=) Also almost everybody loves the Warcor and i Recommend Picking it up sooner tan later. Its a realy good filler.

    Domaru are also worth it but i would wait a little till you got the core Peaces of the army.

    the list posted by @meikyoushisui looks good for starting games but since you Opponent can drop you 2 orders if you go first with 2 combat groups, i would recommend dropping the DAIYŌKAI for Jojimbo, a Warcor and a TR-bot. Also i would Make the Oni the Lt. since Rider is a damn Good Data tracker. I took one of the Ml out and Gave the Link a Specialist.

    it looks like this:
    [​IMG] JSA
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]2
    [​IMG] KUROSHI RIDER Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Breaker Pistol, AP + Shock CCW. (0 | 33)
    [​IMG] ONIWABAN Lieutenant Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (1 | 41)
    [​IMG] SHIKAMI Contender, Nimbus Grenades / Assault Pistol, DA CCW, AP CCW, Knife. (0 | 45)
    [​IMG] KEMPEI (Multispectral Visor L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    [​IMG] KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
    [​IMG] KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14)
    [​IMG] KEISOTSU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    [​IMG] RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    [​IMG] YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2 [​IMG]1
    [​IMG] NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    [​IMG] HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 25)
    [​IMG] WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
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  11. sgthulka

    sgthulka Well-Known Member

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    Not necessarily. Re-loadable disposable weapons, close combat weapons (especially infiltrating ones), light infantry linkable HMGs, marksman rifles, and boarding shotguns (especially infiltrating ones) all punch far above their SWC cost.

    However, the only 0 SWC lieutenant choices are a Domaru, Neko and the Kiroshi rider. So unless you want to make it trivially easy for a Druze sectorial to ID your lieutenant and put you in loss of lieutenant on turn one with lobbed E/M grenades (chain of command doesn't activate with isolation) you'd better limit yourself to 5 swc.
     
  12. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    The Keisotsu, Oniwaban and OYoroi lieutenant are all 1SWC more than the regular profiles of those models, and how many SWC you used isn't public info, so any of those could be a lieutenant and an opponent wouldn't notice. (And how many players would notice something like that? Maybe at a very high level, or if they're also YJ players themselves, but I'm surprised by how few people play by feel rather than by numbers.)
     
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  13. sgthulka

    sgthulka Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget about coordinated orders. Three flammenspeer armed Tanko will nuke pretty much any one target with a coordinated order if you're willing to lose one or two in return (depending on how hard a nut it is that you have to crack). Additionally, we do have access to (albeit expensive) smoke, so you don't necessarily have to out-gun every opponent. Take a typical hard nut to crack -- Tohaa with a sukeul ml symbiomate and a gao rael sniper symbiomate and maybe that sapper guy symbiomate or even jerk face Le Muet. You can always smoke the ML and Sapper and then coordinate-order nuke the gao rael. Once that's accomplished, you can rui shi (or now my new favorite unit) kempetei-link MSV2 kill the sukuel from its bad range band. Or, better yet, just multi-infiltrate oniwaban and crit in close combat with your monofilament. Obviously I'm just using Tohaa as an example, but you can come up with similar work arounds against Phoenix/Agema, Intruders/Wildcats, Hac Tao/Bao, etc. I'm really enjoying the added flexibility the infiltrating Ryuken-9 and specialist Saito have given us in list building.

    In general JSA has always been weak on HMG's and long range active turn firefights, and that doesn't seem to have changed with the new updates. So you just need to expect a lot of failure and have back up plans of back up plans and enough orders to sustain losses.
     
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  14. sgthulka

    sgthulka Well-Known Member

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    Yeah that's my point. They won't notice *if* your'e at 5 SWC. Also, any TO camo token could be an Oniwaban lieutenant. If you're at 6 SWC, though, which is fairly easy to figure out just by glancing at a courtesy list, your lieutenant is going to be fairly obvious. Additionally, Neko and Domaru wear powered armor and are *probably* in a link, so they are giant high-value E/M targets, anyway, and then cat lady can't dodge worth a crap because she's on a bike and doesn't have sixth sense.
     
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  15. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Chain of command does activate when the LT is isolated.

    Chain of command reads:
    • The player can only activate this Special Skill when the Lieutenant enters the Isolated state or any Nullstate.
     
  16. sgthulka

    sgthulka Well-Known Member

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    Interesting. They changed that without me noticing. Thanks very much.
     
  17. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    It's that damn MSV2 Shock Marksman Rifle, plus the Unit-9 SMG, that are making me cry. That's 1.5 SWC gone right away. Then who do I take for my LT? The Keisotsu is 1 SWC and the Oniwaban is 1 SWC too. The 0 SWC options are pretty slim on the ground, unfortunately. With a Keisotsu link including LT, the Shock Marksman Rifle Kempei and a HMG and with a Unit-9 SMG on top, I've got more than half my SWC used already, and I've got basically a HMG in terms of serious ranged firepower to show for it. Rough times.
     
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  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Kuroshi Rider seems like she'll be used as LT a lot, with Kempei as backup for when she inevitably dies. For lists that aren't going Domaru at its core, of course.
     
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  19. EDOCGenKip

    EDOCGenKip Member
    Warcor

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    I just take the Domaru; she's fun. Of course, she works best in the Tankou + Domaru link, since she's dragged to the front so as to be able to decisively use the Lt order. I have yet to try a list with a hanging Domaru Lt, but this is the list I'm looking to try out:

    [​IMG] Obj Assault
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    [​IMG] SAITO TOGAN (Specialist Operative) Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW, Knife. (0 | 40)
    [​IMG] DOMARU Spitfire / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (2 | 39)
    [​IMG] KEMPEI (Multispectral Visor L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    [​IMG] KEISOTSU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    [​IMG] KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    [​IMG] KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    [​IMG] DOMARU Lieutenant Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (0 | 26)
    [​IMG] CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] TOKUSETSU EISEI Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    [​IMG] TOKUSETSU KOHEI Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]6
    [​IMG] RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    [​IMG] RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    [​IMG] KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
    [​IMG] PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] PANGGULING (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    [​IMG] HÙSÒNG Yaókòng HMG / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 25)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    I will admit, it doesn't have very many starter pack units, due in large part to my considering the Daiyoukai, Kuroshi Rider, and HRL Ryuuken more or less worthless compared to other units. Saitou is pulling a pretty heavy double duty, now that he can be made a specialist (he has to balance being an assassin, on-demand smoker, and specialist now, lol); hopefully, the forward deploying SMG ODD Ryuuken help him out in the midfield with mine coverage. If I were to drop a couple units, I could replace the Ryuuken with SMG Oniwaban for maximum assassination, but I'll see if I think I need it or not; right now, clearly, I don't think I need the additional assassination power, heh

    It is worth noting that I don't think the reactive firepower of the list is very great, since it relies on the Ryuuken and Husong to hold the opponent to the midrange, where maybe the Domaru spitfire sticking her head out might take a couple shots to further slow an approach.
     
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  20. Wizardlizard

    Wizardlizard Well-Known Member

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    I almost never max swc - not my style. Even in the new list imo oniwaban and keitso are wastes as lt in such an aggressive army.
    New list makes me use some but not sure what I am looking at taking right now. With my group a constant case of change your list up or face the rock to your scissor.
     
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