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Non-Aligned Armies in N4

Discussion in 'General' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child

    Mar 4, 2017
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    To those that are not up to date N4 is coming and is scheduled for Summer of 2020.

    This tread is created to discuss NA2 in the upcoming edition yes I understand this is a generic thread and there are many NA "sectorials" I hope one centralised thread works if it does not I will start separate threads on the "sectorials" that need it, Suggestions, ideas, wishlist's, opinions, things that work, things that do not work all are welcome if done in a polite manner.

    Now the most basic rule of the thread, be polite this is not a thread to be dissolved in arguing who has the correct ideas and who has not, all ideas are welcome and all comments and criticism is appreciated, as long as the tone is polite.

    For a more generic discussion of the upcoming N4 please use this thread

  2. siri

    siri Well-Known Member

    Nov 30, 2017
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    Redo the Close combat. The burst 1 is just a luck roll, different from shooting with high burts.

    JSA Pays a high price for a not so useful skill.
    Give more samurai and ninja flavors - holo, high burst low damage weapons ( shurikens) but make it technological... some kind of HMG or similar.
    Make some kind of skirmishes samurai - low cost, disposable, with the objective of make their master / arrive in combat.

    Japanese war tactics and technologies improved rapidly in the 15th and 16th centuries. Use of large numbers of infantry called ashigaru ("light-foot", due to their light armor), formed of humble warriors or ordinary people with naga yari (a long lance) or naginata, was introduced and combined with cavalry in maneuvers. The number of people mobilized in warfare ranged from thousands to hundreds of thousands.

    Make it a sectorial again, in his own terms.

    New mines / traps - reduce speed, blind, fire, poison, a real ninja flavor.

    Maybe do a ninja sectorial and a samurai sectorial.

    Create new characters like Attila the Hun, Gengis Khan, Nobunaga, Tokugawa, Masamune some one to rebuild the empire.

    The non affiliates should be comercial or mercenary companies.
    #2 siri, Aug 7, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2019
    RasPuto likes this.
  3. KedzioR_vo

    KedzioR_vo Well-Known Member

    Apr 25, 2017
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    I've played DRUZE and they need something expendable and cheap. The army is nice, a bit small, but it has it's flavour (which is it's main advantage). Still it's composed mostly of rather expensive units, and I think it would benefit of getting something like Libertos - preferably AVA 2, or even like in Dahshat, an option with Mimetism, but not definitely.
    Also some mercenary like Krakot would be nice in DBS. Direct Templates on this aggressive Morat would be nice addition to the stuff DBS already has. And those are mercenaries, bad boys, so they fit the fluff.

    Apart from this, maybe give some unit Chain Of Command option - because our LTs are rather obvious and limited.

    PozdRawiam / Greetings
    Cthulhu363 and oldGregg like this.
  4. rooki1

    rooki1 Korean Baccara Bot

    Nov 24, 2017
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    Anaconda deserve some love.
  5. Dyne

    Dyne Well-Known Member

    Nov 23, 2017
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    • More flavour. Most NA2 have strange combination of units.
    • More Lieutenant options in Ikari (they only have Keisotsu 1 swc and Brawler).
    • A new character for Ikari, like the colonel Genzo Ikari!
    • Ninjas with smoke grenades and mines!!
    • More units in Druze BS.
    • Brawlers in JSA.
    SirGrumpyPants likes this.
  6. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

    Nov 28, 2017
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    It's really not a luck roll for JSA units if you look at the math. Once you get up into JSA range for CC, your odds of winning by default because you just crit someone are incredibly high (above 30% for almost all of our units, and even higher for others.) 1s on the dice becoming 7s to 9s means you win f2f rolls really easily.

    The big problem with CC is delivery. A Domaru is so hard to actually get up to a point on the table where it can do its job without a lot of support, and if you take the pieces in JSA that could support Domaru, you're going to spend your orders on them anyway.
    #6 meikyoushisui, Aug 7, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2019
    SirGrumpyPants, Cthulhu363 and siri like this.
  7. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

    Sep 10, 2018
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    In this thread a lot of users gave some feedback about JSA in N3, and please update the poor Musashi.

    Talking about JSA. The sectorial is hindered by his own theme. Ryukens 9 (the only useful profile), Oniwabans and some smoke/MSV2 combo are carrying all the weight of the faction.

    The HIs are in a very bad spot (if you focus on them, you won't have enough orders to charge through the table and deal enough damage, plus they are terrible at ranged combat). The last nail in the coffin is their low BTS, no veteran and no support able to keep with them; so they are super vulnerable to a lot of mid field shenanigans.
    Smoke need to be handled much more generously, all ninjas and some HI profiles should get it; it's a so basic tool for the army (but I think the smoke mechanic should be changed, but that's a general topic). Plus the SWC tax in the faction seems excesive. And some extra specialists would be handy.
    Plus the sectorial needs better link options; and a rework the Shikami, Daiyokai and Kuroshi; they feel inefective or redundant.
    wuji likes this.
  8. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

    Jan 2, 2018
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    I've never fully understood this point, but seen it repeated a few times now. The effect of a CC score above twenty has an extremely similar probablistic impact to having a score below twenty but rolling multiple dice. It actively insures against the low end of bad luck in a way that's actually more effective than simply rolling more dice, making a CC expert far more reliable if it reaches melee than a gunfighting expert engaging in their preferred range.
  9. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

    Oct 11, 2018
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    Why? To destroy the flavour?

    Ninjas should have at least one profile with smoke.
    The Bow needs a buff.
    The Daiyokai needs a buff (maybe Total Reaction?). Right now it is useless next to Domaru and Tankos.
    Shikami needs Infiltration or Forward Deployment.
    Mushashi needs a better way to move up as well.
    Monofilament should ignore Total Immunity.

    The Chaksa Longarms need a buff. Mimetism or Fireteam: Triad, something like that.
    The Anaconda needs a serious buff.
    A second FO option would really be nice.
    #9 daszul, Aug 9, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2019
    SirGrumpyPants likes this.
  10. sorniak

    sorniak Well-Known Member

    Dec 15, 2017
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    Druze faction - is so weird to play. If there would be a brawler HMG and 5 member link of brawlers - we'd almost never see Druze Unit in Druze sectorial. I think it is an artificial injection of Druze and bad design of sectorial, where Druze are weakness (expensive unit, very difficult to play as they are slow and fragile.). Druze vs Brawler do not give so much advantage, and costs are higher. According to fluff, Druze are the guys who do not afraid to die - why not to give them some NWI + shock immunity, frenzy and remove cubes. Make Druze tough, not just an expensive glass cannons.
  11. Jedkar Midune

    Jedkar Midune Member

    Mar 4, 2018
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    As a generic rule I'd suggest to level the field and give all factions some kind of wildcards (tears of joy for Druze and JSA)

    Ninja are awesome until they actually have to do something. Engage with a PH roll just doesn't work on ninjas stats or straight dodge for that matter. May be allow martial art to grant a +3 to dodges (maybe not dodge smoke).

    Tankos are so much better in Ikari company with special fire team and special haris.

    Allow any Domaru to link with karakuri not just the haris version.

    Give the faction eclipse grenade or similar. May be some Tohaa tech based on their "alliance" since uprising

    Bring special operative Saito back... If ninjas/dodge get better it may not be auto include :)
    #11 Jedkar Midune, Aug 10, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2019
    wuji likes this.
  12. Quickit

    Quickit Well-Known Member

    Nov 23, 2017
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    Lower the cost of the Ninja Sniper. A BS12 Order Sergeant is 33/1.5 with essentially the same (usable) skills. I think I've stabbed someone once with my Ninja sniper in the 30+ games I've given him a chance.

    +6 to hit at 0-8" with Tac Bow?

    Shikami - I really really try to use him, he is a lot of fun to use - but I think a few other posts have made some good suggestions for him: 6-2 MOV, FD2, something so that he doesn't burn through your entire order pool to get to where he's useful.

    Mushashi needs defensive tools, something to get him up the board. There's several threads just on him.

    The Karakuri are monsters now - i build every list around them. Having TI and BTS6 makes them way better than anything else in the army. I literally cannot justify the O-Yoroi when for just a few points more i can take a Haris of one Domaru and two Karakuri. 3 orders instead of 1, TI on two of the models, link bonuses, CC protection when necessary, E/M grenades, easier to get cover, the list goes on.. It's sad because I really like the O-yoroi, but they just can't compete.

    I'm sure there's more, I'll post as I think of them.
  13. Grafa

    Grafa New Member

    Aug 9, 2019
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    Dbs wishlist:
    1)Give them(druze) mimetism(to all profiles, not only sniper)
    or mov 4-4 (like briscards or yadu)
    or mechanized deployment
    or nwi\dogged
    or hyper-dynamics l1
    or tactical awareness
    or reduce costs

    They must be real backbone of this army..., after all it is "DRUZE Bayram Security", not "Brawlers and Peacemaker Security"

    1.1) Arslan needs strategos lvl 1-2, shock immunity, wildcard. Or free haris and high burst weapon.

    2)Huznakuts could be regular in DBS.

    3) more camo/odd/to/msvj options

    4) more than one doctor plz

    5) opportunity to take cordelia separately

    6) more interesting weapon choices like ap spitfire/mk 12/red fury/boarding shotgun mb? May be smthg new like "assault viral pistol", "e/m rifle":grinning:
    7) COC and more lt options!
  14. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

    Nov 24, 2017
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    Well, JSA is going to be heavily affected by any CC changes in N4. Enough that I really think JSA could use it's own N4 thread.

    Shikami need to be easier to use. At present they are incredibly terrain dependent, and really need super-dense boards to do well. FD2 or (basic) Infiltration would be good, shave off a couple orders spent getting to where you need them.
    Ryuken-9 could use another profile or two, not sure what specifically to give them. See the "Make JSA easier to use" thread.
    Ninjas need smoke grenades. Could also use some 'fun' tricks like Madtraps or Crazy Koalas (or ADHL/EM/Cyber/APERS mines). And a saboteur profile with D-Charges.
    wuji likes this.
  15. nethervoid

    nethervoid Well-Unknown Member

    Jul 27, 2019
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    Spiral corpse
    Chacksa Longarm: needs a lot of adjustments, to fluffy for such heavy weaponry and to weak BS as-well for such sky-rate cost
    Kiel-Saan: Cheap variants for Special Triad composition (or just Fireteam: Triad skill)/remove special fireteam at all and decrease cost respectively
    Kerail Preceptor: some Mutan load-out buff whould be nice
    Anaconda: maybe mimetism would suits it?

    In general - need access to eclipse grenades, to HMG troops, adding mimetism to some of existing troops. Original Tohaa have problems in long-range gunfights, SC gets even worse, with much less survival capabilities and no reliable longrange shooters
    Additional AD option would be also nice.

    And more important...Move SC closer to Tohaa
    #15 nethervoid, Aug 17, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
    The Holy Knight likes this.
  16. Spellbreaker90

    Spellbreaker90 Well-Known Member

    Jul 18, 2018
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    This. New rules and new model. Come on with NA a lot of faction now need it to be at least viable.
  17. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member

    Nov 24, 2017
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    JSA: e
    1)smoke at least for the FTO version of mushashi, boosts him and gives the tanko a good delivery mechanism.
    2 )Assault handed out like candy to the CC specialists. CC is their thing but it's very very hard to get in without burning stacks of orders. Assault gives them that last burst of speed to close the gap that is so hard to negotiate at times.
    3) give me some gunfighters, daiyokai with full auto or mimetism would give it purpose and lift some of the burden off the CC guys.

    1) give them some more stuff. They are so small and compact it's hard to build anything that feels much different from list to list
    2) anaconda needs a reason to exist in this faction. Either give it a "druze only" profile that gains some meaningful benefit or just ditch it in favour of something more useful to the faction
  18. East of Irem

    East of Irem Well-Known Member

    Jan 19, 2018
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    No grenades for ninjas... silenced snipers and or pistols maybe? Removal of pointless AP/shock ninja profiles DA CCWs across the board.

    Removal of stealth from MA would do a lot to differentiate warbands from close combat troops with a marker state (assume stealth stays attached to camo or simply granted to all skirmishers perhaps via ITS add-on).

    All HQ troops to actually do HQ things, daiyokai should either have LT/NCO/CoC profiles or just not be an HQ unit.

    Jammers integrated into hacking system as a hacking device. Powerful but limited blackout style program(s) that can emulate current jammer.

    Specialist status changes from being nested inside FO, CoC, doc, eng etc to being on the profile.

    Deletion of frenzy, the trigger is inappropriate for a game like infinity: frags are not recorded! If in doubt make it rule that does nothing at all but provide a small discount in points, that's functionally how it gets played in my experience.

    A reason to use soldiers of fortune in an event (cut universal vanilla Merc availability).

    Alter SWC for wardrivers, high swc to cement a weakness in ariadna is fine as a game design choice. But is not suitable for NA2 factions where hackers are plentiful.

    Brawlers, wardrivers, anaconda available to all Merc factions.

    Less fireteam complexity...
    Prime example: Ikari would be fine with keisotsu core, tanko haris, brawler haris and wu ming haris. Mixed links do nothing for me but waste space on the page.
    Fireteam core: LINE TROOPERS
    Fireteam core: VETERAN TROOPERS
    Fireteam core: CHARACTER
    could provide generic answers to relieving fireteam complexity in some factions.

    More effect for niche skills:
    Eg: Advanced command +1 command token is great and all but how about +4 command tokens?
    Free agent to swap pools is cool sure, how about you take your fireteam with you?
    #18 East of Irem, Aug 23, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
  19. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

    Oct 11, 2018
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    Yojimbo likes this idea! :smiling_imp:
  20. roobot

    roobot Well-Known Member

    Jul 25, 2018
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    Remove the SWC tax on the Druze haris and brawler haris option in DBS, one of the flavourful things of the sectorial (I feel) is being able to reform fireteams repeatedly throughout the game, so anything that helps that is a plus! Apart from that I'll just echo what others have said about Anaconda and Arlsan needing a buff. But also Armand, as he is he just isn't worth taking! More LT options would also be nice.
    csjarrat likes this.
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