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Nomads in N4

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. L2590

    L2590 Member

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    I understand your point, especially given the Nomads access to an excellent KHD for 20pts. But, to me, that feels like a tax that necessitates running extra hackers and eliminates Zoe's on-paper advantage of being both a hacker and an engineer for 27pts. Of course, as I have suggested in the main thread, I feel KHD is something that needs looking at in itself and simply nerfing it to the point that it's less ubiquitous may make Zoe more useful.

    I was not aware of the FD rules in ITS and wish CB had added them to Army. That does address my issues with 4-2 movement on MI in general which, as you probably guessed, are more to do with profiles that have shorter ranged weapons. I agree the Intruders have fair drawbacks for how strong they are.

    I also did not consider the cost of armour. this is a good point and I agree that a revision to this would help a number of struggling MI units. However, I still feel Healers need to have ODDs to avoid them becoming weak points in link teams, especially vs template weapons.

    Who's to say it can't keep it's loadouts AND get weirder? ;p
     
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  2. jfunkd

    jfunkd Rebel Myrmidon Graffiti Artist
    Warcor

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    This feels like this fits Nomads.

    I'd like to see Zondbots get Climbing+, and assuming they would go up in points, have them cost 4 points.
     
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  3. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Zondcats really should :'(
     
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  4. borisgreymenace

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    they have it in the rpg, along with ODD, a repeater, hacking device, and adhesive pistol. maybe one day we can all have Billies and Pi-Wells. we can dream.
     
  5. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    nerfing KHD will just make hacking more pointless than its now. We can completelly take out KHD from the game, and hacking would be still an almost not used feature of the game because HD and AHD have a not so powerful real impact
     
  6. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    No, they would give a lot of forces a really hard time.
     
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  7. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    I have to disagree. Only some lists, not forces, will get a "hard time", but not harder than against what some faction can use instead of hacking to deal with the same lists. Hacking has too much flaws at the moment, and KHD just makes them worse. Maybe one can see a game lost because hacking, of course, but that will happen much fewer times than hacking not doing a real impact in the gam (even when there are viable objectives)

    in active, putting the enemy in IMM-1 is a waste of orders most of the time (and if you try to move your repeater out from that ZoC, you give free reset), If you need orders to possition against a TAG, trying to possess it is also a waste (because to save that TAG, the enemy will just spend a token after you cannot use much more orders after positioning and hacking). Isolating is strong, yes, but is one os the less punitive "null" effects (is not null, I know) in the game (jet is maybe the only working for hacking).

    in reactive, it is "strong", yes...but deppends too much on the bad moves from the enemy, having the right hacker in the right possition against the right enemy (lots of variables, or him having an extreme list (which itself it should mean that hacking is accepted as good counter), or the hacker players has gained complete board control (and then, hacking usually is not so needed). But even with that, the enemy player has too much room: lots of stealthed HI/TAGs make them almost inmune to hacking in ARO (you are forced to bring a sixth sense hacker at least), reset is too easy to get you free and safe (you can fail guts both when wining the FtF roll or saving the BTS). And against more than half of the hacking profiles of the game, normal shotting is more effective than hacking, and just for, usually, an IMM1?
     
  8. jfunkd

    jfunkd Rebel Myrmidon Graffiti Artist
    Warcor

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    Hacking could be slightly better in the active turn for HD and AHD. Currently while there are opportunities to actually save orders in the long run by throwing down an Immob or Spotlight, usually the odds are so dicey for the hacking attack that it's a better idea just to go for a BS attack with more dice without taking the chance for the hacking status effect.

    I'd like to see some changes. Keep in mind these are just some ideas I have been mulling over.

    • AHD should have Brain Blast (or a B1 version of it), it's silly they can't hurt hackers at all
    • Breakwater should be a valid ARO to a hacking threat before a hacking attack is declared.
    • There should be fewer programs that land the same effect to reduce the confusing program bloat. Maybe at least categorize and stack those that immobilize with levels like all other skills, like MA skills for example.
    • Immobilization programs should have better ammo types or modifiers for increased effectiveness
    • Spotlight should be B2 or not have a -3 mod
    • KHD should cost a little more than it does now
    • A single hacking program should be able to be included in a coordinated order without an EVO, obviously this couldn't be combined with BS attacks and other units in the activation would idle.
     
    #308 jfunkd, Jan 21, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
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  9. MattB89

    MattB89 Member

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    Some decent ideas there. Maybe KHDs could cost 0.5 SWC instead of the current 0. This might make a few of them disappear as they seem to be the main reason that AHDs and HDs dont get a lot of use.
     
  10. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Given the Hyper narrow focus of the KHD making it cost SWC may be a bit much, I'd rather see it's point cost get bumped up with the AHDs brought down.

    Giving the AHD a SWORD program I'm really not a fan of, though given how weak brain blast is it may be fine. With the AHD I'd much prefer to see it pick up break water and have the SHIELD programs get fixed, it increases the chance of it surviving against it's intentionally designed counter with out turning it into a do everything device.
     
  11. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    while on IMM-1, reset has a -3
    AHD could put objectives on IMM2 (even if it is only for 2 turn and have some restrictions).
    A failed reset on active turn forbids further resets that turn (the use of engineers gets more relevant)
    Take out free guts move on a successful reset.
    On reactive and IMM, take out the reset if someone moves in ZoC, only reset if you get attacked by hacking. That way remotes can move freely after hacking, making them also more relevant for that purpose
    KHD gets 0.5 SWC, I think this is a good one. Maybe not all of them, but most could.

    not all of them (at once could be hardcore), but some could be implemented
     
  12. SpectralOwl

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    Oblivion is easily punitive enough on AHDs since it kills the Hacker's device and removes their access to the order pool, leaving them a sitting duck. Even Blackout on a standard device can essentially remove the threat posed by most enemy hackers. KHDs, though? If those programs and their modifiers were attached to a gun there'd be outrage. They're so strong that most Hacking Devices are often considered a downgrade on any troop that is expected to leave the DZ without a marker state, mostly AD troops and non-marker Skirmishers, because they make that soldier a target of attacks they have a snowball's chance of defending against. It's one of the few things in Infinity I think should be straight-up nerfed. As for having SWC costs waived for narrow focus, I've played against opponents many more times than once where my AHD and its own Support Weapon Cost has been completely useless. Say what you want about limited targets, at least a KHD comes with Cybermask.
     
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  13. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    AHDs have equally powerful modifiers just in the other direction and whose programs have wider impact in the game, which if it were gun would also cause outrage. as for being a down grade, thats more down to people expecting their hackers to go toe to to with their direct counter and still have a chance with out clearing the way first, throw a TAG into CC with Kitsune and what do you think will happen? As for marker state being preferred thats just the game in general at the moment and in regard to the AHD it allows for surprise bricking of their stuff making it harder to avoid wherre as non marker often require far more work and risk to get on target from conventional weapons. for the most part I think the KHD is fine just underc osted to the AHD over costed and both could use with a bit of program culling. if they swapped point costs and their SWC stayed the same it'd be significantly better, I'd also throw in not being able to ignore firewalls for good measure and have that ability tied to an upgrade program.
     
  14. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/2019-in-numbers-its-data-analysis.36359/

    If this is correct (pick it with salt, and remember the coments from the author, this has a lot of missing data), nomads is not in a good spot when talking about aqquiring tournament points. Vainilla is in 15th position (5th if we only look at vainillas), and 2 of our sectorials are 4th from the back in terms of aqquiring tournament points. In terms of wining, we get 14h position with vainilla, tied with other 2. Those are not good numbers to say we are a top faction.

    Because missing data (mainly people who do not put their list on tournaments, but that seems to me that affect all factions the same, with both good and bad results), maybe we are not in so bad possition, but I think is a good indicator
     
  15. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Nomads also has a very large and diverse player base. It’s an entry level faction, so will perform worse in certain metrics because of that.

    If you compare the “Top % rank” metric, all Nomad sectorials perform above average.

    Also remember that this is just 2019, where we’ve seen a trend towards killier ITS missions. This is seen in the relatively low scores for average TP: however, in a more specialist heavy more button pushy tournie you’d see a bounce back. So it’s hard to attribute this as factional issue, yet.

    I think it does show that our sectorials are in a not great place (particularly REM and MI focussed builds being unpopular: digging into the pick rate data shows these are significantly underrepresented), but I’m more hesitant to make that assessment about vanilla (which does achieve a positive win/loss ratio).

    On the metrics vanilla Nomads is worse than FoCo. I doubt this is at all true, and is much more likely the result of FoCo being a small experienced player base.

    This aligns with what we see in the campaigns: Nomads have high participation rates, we lose more than we win but remain competitive at the highest levels.
     
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  16. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    well, pano, yujing, haqq, ariadna and even aleph now are also "entry factions". Nomads has one of the biggest playerbase, that's for sure, that means both it has good and bad players, but that should not "alter" the metric, just made it more clear instead because there is more data (It would alter the metric only if we could confirm that the player base is biased to better/worse players, but I am not sure if we cannot confirm that)

    also, yes, this is for 2019 with a killing-focused ITS, and I highly doubt next ITS will be more "button pushing" oriented than now. CB has been reducing that part little by little in this n3 (and I am sure they will continue that way, because some reasons that are out of this debate), and at the same time, released lots of new specialists for almost all factions. For nomads instead, we got some hard hitters like the kriza, but were those enought to compensate? I don't think so, and numbers seems to confirm that. The reason? I don't think the problem is exactly nomads, but that some other factions are more well rounded.

    Vainilla nomads is our best, but even with that, is not in so good possition to talk about "top tier faction". Between any other vainilla, is tied in 4th possition, and below some na2, but is completelly mid-tier, while our sectorials are between mid and low tier. I think the perception of "competitive at high levels" is because there are some really good players that are also very known, visible, and they distort the perception from what there really is in nomads.
     
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  17. Darkvortex87

    Darkvortex87 Combat jump kamikaze

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    Sorry, I'm late for the discussion.

    What I would like to see for N4...

    Regarding the rules in general:
    -no more nested skills.
    -fewer CC skills (c'mon nobody needs 5 different tables for close combat in a shooting game)
    - split those skills that have different uses in totally different skill lines.
    example: split Camouflage & Hiding into 2 skills. Camouflage(L1 is Mimetism, L2 is ODD) and Hiding (with all the various ambush camo, camo, TO and skills that let you turn into a token).
    Lots of "more linear" skills = easier and more linear interaction. (Just think about MtG, that thrives on a ruleset created 30 years ago)
    - more sectorial-only profiles that underline the role of a single sectorial.
    - remove the limitation on combat jump and link teams, maybe make them capable of linking and keeping unused order on landing. If too strong limit it to 3 men?


    Regarding corregidor:
    Re-imagine corregidor as a rugged, simple yet surprising faction. Nomads should be the "fight dirty" faction and Corregidor should be the "all means necessary" sectorial.
    This can be done with various profiles specific for Corregidor.
     
  18. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    It alters the metric if it's true, not if we can confirm it. It's impossible to confirm. It is possible.
    Stats are only useful to draw certain conclusions. For example unit usage rates can show interest, but not as much unit power.
     
  19. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Well, I mean, we can definitely confirm that Nomad players are better at the game. Like, everyone just knows it.

    Also more attractive and we smell better.

    :grinning::grinning::grinning:
     
  20. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    so thanks to the cancon vid we know hacking is being cut back to less devices and programs, and having a wider impact on the game including things that are currently unhackable. Being the hacking faction this is going to N4 all kinds of fun for us.
     
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