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New to Infinity looking at JSA

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by OCEE78, Sep 29, 2019.

  1. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Any motorcycle troop takes a lot of practice to get best effect out of them. I'd recommend playing a Bousouzoku list (4x Aragoto, Kuroshi, Yojimbo, other troops to taste) until you feel confident you can make them work, but plan on losing a LOT until you figure them out!

    Japanese Secessionist Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]5 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]6
    KUROSHI RIDER Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Breaker Pistol, AP + Shock CCW. (0 | 33)
    ARAGOTO Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 28)
    ARAGOTO (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
    ARAGOTO Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 26)
    ARAGOTO Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 26)
    YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)

    2.5 SWC | 159 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Good news is that you can do a biker gang and still add almost anything to it (well, except for all the REMs, you run out of SWC). Defensive Keisotsu Core? no problem. Heck, you can even add a DoTanko Core!
     
    OCEE78 likes this.
  2. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    A list full of bikes is amazing, in the sense that (if you count up lieutenant and impetuous orders) you can go as high as 20 orders.
    Like this:


    Tokyo Drift
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10 [​IMG]4
    SAITO TOGAN Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW, Knife. (0 | 39)
    ARAGOTO Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 28)
    ARAGOTO Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 26)
    KUROSHI RIDER Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Breaker Pistol, AP + Shock CCW. (0 | 33)
    ARAGOTO (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
    KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14)
    KEISOTSU Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    KEISOTSU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
    KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    TOKUSETSU EISEI Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    RYŪKEN (CH: Limited Camouflage) Heavy Rocket Launcher, Antipersonnel Mines / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 23)
    RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 20)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
    Section9 likes this.
  3. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    For about 5 months I was playing 2-3 games a week running 10 Kum, and then a full 9 order 200pt~ Self contained army for my Haqq. So I could see this making sense. I've used bikes alot, I find they perform pretty well.

    Big things to think about Re; Kuroshi Rider as LT.

    • Making use of that LT order is important. Impetuous + LT Order give her ALOT of movement whenever she needs it. Sometimes you need it to run down the table and flame thrower/combi rifle some fools. Sometimes you need to save it to hit button.
    • She can't get cover so don't bother trying to hug it so much. I see local motorcycle players take frights from a position that would put their bike in cover or that leaves their opponent in cover. You have 8" Of movement and Mimetism to act as micro cover. So Sweep out wide and deny them that cover in response!
    • You have dogged so use it. One of JSA's struggles is applying supporting fire where it needs to be. Kuroshi is FAST. Sometimes its worth risking that ARO if it sets your combi/flame thrower up to take out a troublesome long range piece. You're going to have COC model anyhow.
     
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  4. OCEE78

    OCEE78 Member

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    Thanks for all the help guys. I got a fantastic deal off a buddy and ended up with everything but some niche stuff from JSA.

    I was curious as to a couple of questions which are not directly related to JSA so not sure if this is acceptable or not but; what size bases should Yaoxie be on? Also, how important is running a Saito? I like the Shinobu and have also have a Yojimbo being brand new to the game, having my first real game this evening, the game seems very complicated in creating a list. But I suppose that is because I have no real idea about the game. I never thought of using Bikes either, they were not something that drew me in, but will be accumulating 6 Bikes including a Kuroshi rider so running a group of bikes is certainly a possibility! How big do bike bases need to be also?

    That is a lot of information I know, was in a rush to get this posted. Sorry in advance.
     
  5. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yaoxie (Rui Shi and Lu Duan) are on 55mm bases, now. If you got really old models you may have 40mm bases with tabs on the legs.

    Bikes are also on 55mm bases, now. Again, if you got really old models the bikes may be on 40mm bases. (There was a time when Infinity only had two base sizes, 25mm and 40mm, with even TAGs on 40mm bases)

    This is all covered by the Silhouette stat of the models.

    The different stats are: MOVement distance, Close Combat skill, Ballistic Skill, PHysical, WIP (Willpower), ARMor, BioTechnical Shield, Wounds (or STRucture points), Silhouette, and AVAilability.



    ===========
    Now, I cannot over-emphasize how important it is to work your way up in Infinity, ideally by following the progression in the Operation:whatever 2-player sets. 3v3 mooks, then adding a new model with one or two new rules in a mini-campaign.

    Infinity is a very complex game, take your time to get the basics down solid. Also, expect to lose a lot, especially the first time you see a new rule like TO Camo/Ninjas or Airborne Deployment. For a lot of people, Infinity has an immense history of "Wait, you can do that?!?" moments. "Wait, you can give a model more than one order per turn?!?" "Wait, you can drop a trooper into my backfield?!?" "Wait, you can Hidden Deploy a model?!?" etc.

    A lot of time, these things seem nearly insurmountable. But then you talk to people and figure out how to beat that "Wait, you can do that?!?" item.
     
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  6. Mcgreag

    Mcgreag Well-Known Member

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    Saito is not overly important, he was great when he had the specialist operative version, being in practice a better ninja.

    But since they removed that option he has become a niche pick at best, personally I have only ran him one since that change and that was in a paradiso campaign mission where being a good anti-material was more important than being specialist.
     
  7. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, Specialist Saito was an easy choice.
    But he is still one of the three possible smoke sources in JSA.
    (Saito, Shinobu and Yojimbo)
    And you might want some smoke,
    on the one hand to cover your movement up the field,
    as JSA lacks long range fire power,
    and on the other hand to use the MSV2 on the Rui-Shi and SMR Kaisotsu
    to shoot through your own smoke at enemies without vision through it.
     
  8. LeeroyVinland

    LeeroyVinland O-12 Agent

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    You mean Kempei
     
  9. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, just had the "link name" in my mind...
     
  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Saito and Shinobu compete for the same slot in the army, IMO. If you're facing a 1W army I'd take Saito, but I'd take Shinobu for dealing with lots of 2W or TAGs.
     
  11. OCEE78

    OCEE78 Member

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    Thanks again for all the info. I was interested in whether Shinobu and Saito were comfortable in a list together. One thing I was wondering about is how many ninja and obiwanan you can use in a list before they become a hinderance.

    I also had a go at making a 300 pt list for another friendly game Im having against a friend, its nothing serious or anything, but incorporated stuff I was excited to use and allowed me to put some thought into my orders etc.
    Japanese Secessionist Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    SAITO TOGAN Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW, Knife. (0 | 39)
    YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    KEMPEI (Multispectral Visor L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
    KEISOTSU Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 20)
    KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]4 [​IMG]4
    KUROSHI RIDER Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Breaker Pistol, AP + Shock CCW. (0 | 33)
    ARAGOTO Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 26)
    ARAGOTO Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 26)
    ARAGOTO Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 19)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    One thing I was thinking of changing is replacing the Kuroshi rider with a Obiwanan lieut and then bulking up the orders in that group somehow. The lack of hacking stuff is because we are staying clear of hacking for now until the basics etc of the game become second nature. And only dabbling into the hacking side of the game.

    This seems quite fun also, alot of bodies
    Japanese Secessionist Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    SAITO TOGAN Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW, Knife. (0 | 39)
    YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    KEMPEI (Multispectral Visor L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
    KEISOTSU Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    RYŪKEN (Forward Deployment L2, ODD) Submachine Gun, Antipersonnel Mines, D-Charges / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 24)
    RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 20)
    KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]6
    ONIWABAN Lieutenant Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Monofilament CCW. (1 | 41)
    KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14)
    KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)

    6 SWC | 299 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
  12. Mcgreag

    Mcgreag Well-Known Member

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    Some comments about the second list. 2 CoC Kempei is overkill, there are really no need for that, also note that you have what looks like to be 2 Fireteam Core, one in each group but you can have only one. Sure you can use command tokens to switch around but you will run out of command tokens quickly that way.
    Also in the second group once the Oniwaban dies you will be sitting with 5 orders but nothing to spend them on. I would suggest moving some units over to remedy that, Yojimbo and/or the Ryuken are prime candidates.
    You also need to consider what mission your are doing, while you have 4 specialists none of them are units that you would want to move up into the midfield to push buttons with. A KHD Ninja is generally the answer to that problem, even if you are mostly skipping hacking just treating it as a specialist and ignoring the hacking part still makes it great.
     
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  13. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    And keep in mind that if you deploy Shinobu Lieutenant in Hidden Deployment, you will start in Loss of Lieutenant.
     
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  14. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    My standard advice is not more than two Hidden Deployment or Airborne Deployment troopers (or one HD and one AD, two TOTAL) in the same combat group.
     
    meikyoushisui likes this.
  15. OCEE78

    OCEE78 Member

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    So had my first game with JSA tonight and my third game of Infinity in total. Killed some stuff, but made big blunders with my bikes and had some pretty unfortunate rolls! But enjoyed it none the less! I went with this list in the game.
    Japanese Secessionist Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    SAITO TOGAN Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW, Knife. (0 | 39)
    KEMPEI (Multispectral Visor L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    KEMPEI (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
    KEISOTSU Paramedic (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
    KEISOTSU (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    KEISOTSU Missile Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 14)
    KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)
    RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 20)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]4
    YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    KUROSHI RIDER Lieutenant Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Breaker Pistol, AP + Shock CCW. (0 | 33)
    ARAGOTO Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 26)
    ARAGOTO (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    But had Yojimbo immobilised in his first impetuous and had no engineer! Lost all bikes bar my Kuroshi rider in my first turn, lots of lessons learnt there! I enjoyed the Kuroshi Rider but didn't use her aswell as I could have.

    Came up with something a bit different for my next game, would love to use Oniwaban but not found a place for them when building my lists so far, Saito was also great fun but as he joined the game, Id lost too many orders and he wasn't as useful as he could have been.

    Let me know what you think of this list.
    Japanese Secessionist Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]6 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]1
    TOKUSETSU EISEI Doctor (MediKit) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    DAIYŌKAI Red Fury, Panzerfaust / Pistol, DA CC Weapon, AP CC Weapon. (1 | 51)
    DOMARU (Fireteam: Haris) Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (0.5 | 27)
    DOMARU (Fireteam: Haris) Chain Rifle, E/M Grenades / Pistol, E/M CCW, Shock CC Weapon. (0.5 | 27)
    YOJIMBO Contender, Nanopulser, Smoke Grenades, CrazyKoalas (2) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 21)
    RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 20)
    NINJA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Tactical Bow / Pistol, DA CCW, Knife. (0 | 29)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]6
    SAITO TOGAN Combi Rifle, Smoke Grenades / Pistol, EXP CCW, Knife. (0 | 39)
    KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)
    KEMPEI (Multispectral Visor L2) Shock Marksman Rifle / Pistol, CCW, Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    KEISOTSU Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 9)
    KEISOTSU Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 17)
    KEISOTSU Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 9)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
    Abrilete likes this.
  16. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    Gratz on your game! Taking bikes as the first JSA game... that's a bold move. I respect it! Out from the JSA, to me, the units that need most practice to excel are the bikes and the Oniwabans/Ninjas. They require a ton of practice.

    Some quick questions you need to make yourself for the bikes: Is the lane spacious enough? What counter deployment can they make? Do I use the Impetuous Order? Should I cancel it?

    With Yojimbo one tactic you can employ is to deploy him out of sight, then with the Impetuous Order pop smoke first and then walk to the nearest target. I can't confirm for sure, but it seems that in your game Yojimbo got aro'd in his 8'' impetuous movement.

    As for the Ninjas, leave Oniwabans to deploy last. They excel as reserve pieces. You can attempt to superior infiltrate if that lands you nearby an enemy tag. Shredding TAGs with Monofilament is very satisfying (for you). If you liked Saito Togan's Smoke shenans, you can use a Shinobu instead, so you have that utility and she's still an Oniwaban.
    Normally the Hacker ninjas deploy as close as possible to objectives and that's it.
    During game you need to ask yourself: do you Hidden Deploy? Do you deploy as a Marker? If hidden, when do you show up? When do you not? Should you attempt to infiltrate? Should you not?
    Also, Ninjas are very bad at gunfights, so if you want to take out a piece with a ninja/oniwaban, barring opportunistic ARO's and mispositioning punishments, you need to calculate your routes carefully to avoid giving too many Discover ARO, until you get b2b to slice someone in two.

    EDIT: Grammar and phrasing, I wrote this in retarded monday morning english.
     
    #36 Ashtaroth, Oct 14, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2019
  17. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    It's going to struggle with going first due to how orders are divided. I would put Rui Shi, Haris, Ninja, and the FT Core in group 1, and Saito/Yojimbo/Doctor in group 2. The reason is that the Rui Shi and Haris both want a lot of orders, and you can hold Saito back in group 2 and command token him over to group 1 on a later turn when you can use him. As it stands now, a strategic command token highly limits it's ability to accomplish a lot with either group on turn one.

    In general, you want 8 regular orders on the table in your main group at the beginning of turn one. Otherwise, you're liable to get command tokened down to 6 or less, which is hard to play even with NCO.

    Another option is to find room for the Domaru FO in the Haris, so that you can spend orders in it more comfortably knowing it can push buttons once it's up the table (or find just the points to get Oyama in there at least for the massive CC threat.)
     
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  18. OCEE78

    OCEE78 Member

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    Thanks for the feedback Ashtaroth. Everything you described is what I didnt take into account! I am sure Ill do it a few more times before then too. I had a big issue on when to bring out my Ninjas and basically used both poorly. Need a fair few more games with them until Ill feel comfortable though I am sure. The realisation that everything is expendable is the thing I am having difficulty with.

    My favorite units were the Kuroshi rider and the Spitfire aragoto, so will certainly give them another go in the future.

    Meikyoushisui, thanks for advice, it all makes complete sense what you said. Do you think the list is even worth running? I don't have Oyama atm, him and Tankos are the things I dont have for JSA (And Shikami). I like the advice though. Last time round I kinda ended up using my Fireteam core as my main piece which wasn't ideal really, also in regards to a FO Domaru, it doesn't say it can go into a Haris team? And also not sure what to take out so that I can use it.

    Thanks again for the advice.
     
    Ashtaroth likes this.
  19. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I think it's worth playing suboptimal lists sometimes to see why it is they don't work, or what parts of them do work.

    A Haris is made of three units as specified on the Sectorial Army List, one of whom possesses the Haris skill. The 2 Domaru + 1 Daiyokai is listed as a Haris, and the Domaru with the Haris skill has the Haris skill, so the third Domaru can be any Domaru, including the FO, or Neko, or the Spitfire, or whatever. In this case, after playing with it a lot, I can't really see an effective way to fit the FO without a big change in composition of your list, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.
     
  20. OCEE78

    OCEE78 Member

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    Had a few games now, picking the game up slowly but surely. Although, I am finally understanding why JSA are considered difficult. Getting into CC is a game within itself, very difficult. I am also a bit sad about Ninjas, the whole idea of them and the models look great, I just feel apart from the KHD I don't ever get chance to take one. Even the KHD Ninja is just there for objective purposes, but this might just be a part of the game that I am not understanding. Knowing when to bring my TO Camo units into the game is something I also have not grasped. I often wait to late and have already lost to many orders or I never get the opportunity I wanted.

    Oniwaban and Saito were the units I was most excited about using, but I am struggling to bring them into the game without being fearful of dying to the first ARO. Do I just need to take more risks? The low PH and my poor rolls, that I seem to be very consistent at! Make me far to worried about losing models, this is something I am going to have to remove from my mindset whilst playing infinity I think.

    The stuff I like so far are the Karakuri! I took out 6 Models with one order on a heavy shotgun in one game, granted it was poor placement on the other players part. That brings me to a question I had! I rolled crits for both Burst with the Heavy shotgun. Would this auto kill all models within the templates or do I need to roll separately the models in the template?

    I also like the Kuroshi rider, but I have also found bikes to be rather difficult. However, I will get there! Persistence is key.

    Overall I am enjoying the game a lot, just realising the game is not very forgiving, nor is JSA.