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N4 Shikami changes

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by Catspaw, Sep 25, 2020.

  1. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    The Dodge change is likely the number 1 change to CC units that helps make their CC stats viable.
     
    OCEE78 likes this.
  2. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    For active yes, but sadly engage aro can now just be walked away from
     
  3. OCEE78

    OCEE78 Well-Known Member

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    So you can move out of contact and shoot, and then force another dodge into CC or out of LOF?
     
  4. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    What do you mean?
     
  5. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Damn I need to go reread something I think
     
  6. OCEE78

    OCEE78 Well-Known Member

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    I was just posing a scenario, I wasn't aware you could just move out of CC either. Although I suppose with the buff to CC in the active turn, weakening it in the reactive turn makes some sense.
     
  7. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    No, you can't Declare Move while engaged.

    I think what they mean is that Active Dodge movement happens before ARO Dodge, so if the Shikami and it's target both Dodge, and both succeed (with free target getting a -3 for no LoF) then even if the Shikami makes it to the enemy model they can move away again with their Dodge Move, and because the troopers aren't affecting each other it'll be normal rolls.
     
  8. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    Sorry I should have been a bit more clear.

    In n3 on a successful declaration of the engage skill you were allowed to stop a troopers movement and place yourself in b2b with it anywhere along it's movement path within your engage range, preventing then from going further even if their movement allowed .

    However this is no longer the case at all. If your domaru is .5 inches from an enemy and it succeeds and dodge aro , but the enemy movement takes it further than the 4 inches move of the domaru, the domaru simply cannot move into cc.

    So lots of units with 6 base movement can simply ignore attempts to engage them by just going about their movement normally . Even worse you can even ignore said attempts to engage by simply declaring move as your second short skill even in right quarters as all you need to do is move outside the engage radius .

    In n3 as long as their movement made any contact with said engage radius you would lock the unit in place at said point.


    Hope that is clearer than before
     
  9. OCEE78

    OCEE78 Well-Known Member

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    Just to clarify for my slow self. The scenario you outlined is due to the fact that dodge movement occurs after the turn is over? Sorry if I haven't understood, it seems important so I really want to understand.
     
  10. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    Yes, dodge movement occurs at resolution. And you will only be engaged with the enemy of at the resolution step you are in base contact with the enemy
     
  11. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    N3 engage placed you into B2B regardless of how far away the opponent moved in their turn, meaning that the engaging trooper could potentially move 20+ inches by engaging a motorcycle....

    N3 Engage was also fairly dangerous as it allows the target to respond with a CC Attack, which would often be as good or better than your PH. I like the new system a lot more!
     
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  12. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    The new system is far better on the active turn for sure.

    It's usability in reactive is much more limited to actually engage the enemy. It definitely makes it harder to punish range powerhouses by engaging them in tight quarters with a decent dodge .

    It's a decent enough trade off for the ability to dodge into cc in the active however, as now you can dodge a template in the approach and gain further movement
     
  13. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    Think what it needs to be noted about the Dodge mechanic is that the CC Trooper's Dodge Move to engage can be countered in both Active and Reactive turn.

    If the Active Turn Trooper has at least 4-4 Mov and something, even with Dodge (+2"), tries to get into CC with it you can just use your second Short Skill and keep moving more than 4" away from its position.
    You would take other AROs unopposed to there is leeway, but generally speaking you can't engage most things with AROs one on one.

    If you try to use Move+Dodge in your Active Turn to get around a Corner into CC, the other guy can also Dodge as your Stealth if you have it is cancelled. The Reactive Trooper's Dodge Move is handled last, so if he succeeds his Normal Roll, you can't successfully stay engaged and are now in LOF to get ARO'ed. Even a PH10 guy has a 50/50 here, not very reliable given you start outside of LOF and he has to Dodge anyway. If you want to avoid a DTW you're better off walking in BTB or at least FTF with your first Short Skill and Dodge against the Template.

    The main use I had for Dodge so far is to not trigger unwanted (TO) AROs on the second Short Skill and to get in Position for Entire Order Skills (Berserk, Triangulated Fire) or Discover+Shoot with HI.
     
    #93 Teslarod, Oct 21, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2020
    Hannibaliafun and OCEE78 like this.
  14. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    Dodge and CC are F2F rolls. If you're engaged, trying to dodge out of CC will get you likely hit by someone's attack.
     
  15. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    I was meaning dodging into CC around a corner, and the intended victim Dodging to avoid getting stuck in CC with the Shikami.
     
  16. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    The other factor and theres just too many statements to quote, the movement of dodge is determined till the effects step. The active player is going to know whether the reactive player succeeded on his dodge roll or not so he doesnt have to move his CC attacker into LoF like an idiot.
     
    #96 wuji, Oct 21, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2020
  17. sebdem

    sebdem New Member

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    It's PH/4" versus PH-3/2" in most of case. A good deal if you Dodge at less than 2".

    But i like your main use :D and will try this.
     
  18. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    I think it's a shame the Duo is pretty much wasted, you're never going to want 2 of them and the lack of wildcards in JSA kind of makes the fire team never going to happen.
     
  19. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer
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    What you mean is that competitively you will never want a duo. But I'll meme my way in my playgroup, declaring super-jumps in Xs shape, making the Shikami high five mid way to then CC someone to death.

    It won't work, but goddamn I'll do my best!
     
  20. wuji

    wuji Well-Known Member

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    I dont think CB will make anything in JSA stand out above all others in anyway but CC, that's fine. I'm okay with that as it's their theme which only a couple of units in the game are able to take on Kitsune or Musashi but all Shikami appear to be is a mashup of a Ninja and a Domaru... I've said many times before that there are two routes to go when making smart unit design and they were optimized for a role being very cost effective or being an uber elite say like a Joan or an Achilles. I dont see CB doing that, that's fine. But I realize there's a 3rd type and that's utility unit. Yojimbo, Oda and Kuroshi are utility units. They can do something for the rest of the army and not just themselves.

    If CB doesnt want to make the Shikami any better. Which honestly it has a few reasonable options only and my favorite is Dodge +3. This would actually allow their Duo Link to be able to charge up the table together, I'd accept their PH being reduced to 13 even. However, if CB thinks they are good as is and this coming year proves they arent competitively fieldable against other JSA options, who knows they might be but if they aren't and CB doesnt want to give them a bump, then CB should start thinking of how to give them utilitarian mechanic. I honestly have no clue what that might look like because I'd rather Musashi get smoke before Shikami. Nimbus to me was perfect. It had a very solid role in supporting the army. I'd still rather see +3 Dodge on both profiles for the double charge forward Army of 2 vibe and this doesnt reduce TOO much the effectiveness of enemy AROs so much as enhance their effectiveness at dodging. So in a F2F roll against and ORC for example the theirs very little room where both fail, and its roughly equal odds in the Shikami active turn charge. I like that. High risk high reward ability to close width quickly with an enemy ARO piece and if he manages to make it this allows the rest of JSA to move forward.
     
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