1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

N3 Helper Sheet for (teaching) beginners

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Florian Hanke, Dec 31, 2019.

Tags:
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    587
    Likes Received:
    754
    That's true, I was just a little startled by the "there's no situation where you'd ever want to Idle" phrasing. And Idling is indeed a cleaner way to do this.
     
  2. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    738
    Likes Received:
    1,212
    The number of times I've watched my opponent declare "idle" as their first skill with their fire team, and spend 2-3 orders shooting in a tough ARO situation, then realise that, actually, it would have been waaaaay better to move the rest of the team up while the team leader shot...

    I'm more than happy to let them continue to make the mistake, but you really shouldn't be actively teaching bad play to new players.

    And no, I disagree, move does everything you require idle to do for baiting AROs.
     
  3. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    587
    Likes Received:
    754
    Maybe, but then you wouldn't be able to tell your opponent "This troop activates, and as their first Short Skill they wave their hand at your guys and smile", because that's clearly not a Move
     
  4. Florian Hanke

    Florian Hanke Does not know how to stop building terrain.

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2019
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    74
    Update: Added Warning (since I remembered that some people in the tournament were wondering why nearby models could not react against attacks against their friend).

    I was unsure about the order of Warning and Guts Roll (Warning is not even mentioned on http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Order_Expenditure_Sequence, sadly not a rare occurrence in the Wiki), but I assumed it should be "after the ARM/BTS Rolls", so that ZoC measurements for Warning are done before Guts moves, so that warning effects occur based on the locations a model was shot.
     
  5. Florian Hanke

    Florian Hanke Does not know how to stop building terrain.

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2019
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    74
    Regarding the Warning rule's writing – it's something I quite often see in the Infinity wiki: There are explicit requirements and there are implicit requirements. The explicit requirements list 1. No order/ARO performed and 2. Someone was attacked in a trooper's ZoC. But there is a third, implicit requirement: The trooper must be able to turn to see (LoF) the attacker.

    Here it would be good to have this implicit requirement as an explicit requirement. Or, in my opinion, with an eye towards N4, the third requirement should just be scratched and to allow troopers that witness an attack to just turn, to reduce the amount of cognitive load Infinity players already have to lift. (Plus as a bonus I think it's more realistic)

    P.S: I should post this in the N4 thread after trying to re-find the other examples :D
     
  6. Florian Hanke

    Florian Hanke Does not know how to stop building terrain.

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2019
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    74
    I'm very much for reducing Infinity's cognitive load, as long as nothing of great substance is removed. Changing Idle -> a 0" move may help (or maybe not even a 0" move, even though that would change a too-short Engage into a move which almost reaches the target, something that would change the game – currently one would not move at all).
     
  7. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    5,901
    Likes Received:
    6,946
    A trooper doesn't need to be able to gain LOF to make use of Warning. Even strictest RAW there is no requirement to gain LOF only to "to modify the arc of his LoF so the attacker is within it." The subject of that sentence is the "arc of his LoF", so "it" refers to "the arc of his LoF" not to "his LoF". So it is ALWAYS possible to achieve this (even when Engaged, in a Zero Vis Zone, or while IMM).

    There's also an extant FAQ for Change Facing that means you don't need to gain LOF as the result of a Change Facing declaration. I think it's a reasonable argument that it could also applied to Warning! because of the similarity of the language. But personally, I'm happy with the RAW answer so have never pursued that argument.

    Aside for PSA: it's also possible to declare Warning! on your active turn.
     
  8. Florian Hanke

    Florian Hanke Does not know how to stop building terrain.

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2019
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    74
    Ah, you are very right, thank you! I was wondering about a potential ambiguity there, then somehow jumped into "reality", wondering how – if they cannot see an attacker – would correctly rotate, then misinterpreting and not rechecking.

    I still think that it would do the game some good to slim down rules that have not much effect, or limit a player unnecessarily (here I'd just let models turn any which way). Looking forward to N4, even though most forum suggestions appear to add to the complexity.
     
  9. Florian Hanke

    Florian Hanke Does not know how to stop building terrain.

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2019
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    74
    Update: I've included @inane.imp's feedback on Warning, thanks again!
     
  10. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    587
    Likes Received:
    754
    Several more things worth mentioning:
    1. You can actually crawl (move while Prone) up to 2" during Guts Roll, as Guts has a fixed MOV of 2" that cannot be modified. If I find the reference thread, I will later link it to this post.
    2. Doctor allows you to heal troops in NWI.
    3. Kinematika can increase the range of Dodge and Engage.
    4. In some places you use numerals like 1st or 2nd, in other places it's 1. and 2.
    5. Jump saves you from Fall Damage if your first MOV is enough to reach a level surface.
    6. CC Attack: what are you trying to say by "Dodge to move 1mm away"? I'm an experienced player and I couldn't understand this right away (though later it came to me), imagine a newbie in my place :)
    7. I would remove damage stats from Mines as there are different kinds of those. You don't list damage stats for BS Attack, why do it here? Also, Mines are usually deployed Concealed and thus they benefit from Camouflaged, as well as Mimetism.
    8. Intuitive Attack can also be used to deploy a Mine that would have a CH token in its Trigger Area.
    9. Discover has no requirement for the target to be a Marker.
    10. Dodge has a -3 MOD against Deployable Weapons that use Templates.
     
    #30 n21lv, Jan 8, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2020
    Florian Hanke and Mahtamori like this.
  11. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2018
    Messages:
    5,901
    Likes Received:
    6,946
    I've only just looked at this in detail. So the formatting 'issue' I have: you're obscuring the Order Expenditure Sequence. I'd bring that to the fore, because one of the best things you can do early (but not usually immediately) is explicitly teach it. So much of Infinity's weirdness is explained by that one thing.

    I'd do this by making 2 sheets:
    * 1 explains the match structure (including explaining the order of deployment and any other pre-game stuff ie. telling your opponent what faction you're playing as per this thread) and the turn structure (this allows you to explain command token usage) (ie. covering Initiative and Deployment and then the Game Sequence)
    * 1 explains the order structure and common skills

    The sheet you have at the moment is the second. So I'd remove things like "Active Player: Collect Orders". That section belongs in something that explains the structure of a turn not the structure of an order. This also allows you to deal with Impetuous orders better; they need to be spend in an Impetuous Phase which is distinct from the main 'Orders Phase'.

    What you want that middle column to read is:

    1. Activation.
    Declare which trooper(s) will activate. Co-ord orders get declared at this time.

    2. Order expenditure. Spending a Command Token to flip Irregular orders Regular happens here.

    3/4/5/6.
    You can do like the 'Short Move'/'Entire'/'Short Skill' with brackets showing where that step is.

    You need to add Coherency checks to step 3. After the short skill is declared prior to moving any models. People forget coherency checks all the time, it's important to teach them well.

    7. Resolution. Visually group all the bits from "Resolve order" to "Roll dice" together, so it shows that they're all linked structurally.

    8. Effects. Apply effects and Warning!

    9. Conclusion. A couple of things happen at the Conclusion of the order, not just Guts
    * Deployables are considered deployed
    * If all of an Engaged trooper’s adversaries are in Null or Immobilized state, the trooper’s player must decide whether to keep the * Engaged state, or cancel it by separating the trooper by 1mm from the adversaries
    * Guts

    10. End of the Order
    Final Coherency Check (this was created in HSN3 "the player must check Coherency at the end of the Order, once the Conclusion has finished, after having performed any movement due to a failed Guts Roll or any other rule)"

    //

    Couple of corrections.

    * Impact Template weapons suffer the -3 to hit from cover. It's more correct to say: Cover (-3), Direct Template Weapons ignore Cover.

    * In BS Attack make the note "Place templates during declaration"

    * Intuitive Attack "WIP roll is [normally] unmodified". Suppression Fire and Full Auto modify the WIP roll, as can some other things (Hacking for instance).

    * No LOF is a 'problem' in Infinity. Do you mean 'No LOF' as in "ignores total cover" or 'No LOF' as in "regardless of facing" or 'No LOF' as in "can be used through a Zero Vis Zone'? Intuitive Attack means "can be used through a Zero Vis Zone" whereas Speculative Fire means "ignores total cover, regardless of facing and can be used through a Zero Vis Zone". I'd use a the cross-out eye to only mean "No visibility" (ie through a Zero Vis Zone) and a crossed-out wall to mean "ignoring total cover".

    * Reset. So there's an awful/cool interaction between Reset and SSL1. A SSL1 Hacker can delay their ARO inside ZOC and prevent Reset being declared as Reset is only valid "After a Hacking or Comms Attack / whilst IMM / as an ARO when enemy model in ZOC".

    * Engage. It's not "Move up to 2" " it's "Against enemy model that moves within 2" ", you can move an infinite distance (its basically a teleport). It's also important to note that the active player places the Engaging model.
     
    Florian Hanke and n21lv like this.
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    10,117
    Likes Received:
    12,607
    @n21lv Dodge has a -3 against deployable template weapons. Other deployables such as MadTraps don't impose this MOD. Otherwise good observations :)
     
    n21lv likes this.
  13. the-cultist

    the-cultist Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2019
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    8
    hey,

    cool work! if its ok i will use it also to introduce some new players!

    is "lean out" part of the concept to mention some skills while "lean out" is a general order option?

    greetz
     
    Florian Hanke likes this.
  14. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    587
    Likes Received:
    754
    Yes, I meant exactly those, don't know why I chose to use the shorthand :) Usually I'm very specific.
     
  15. Florian Hanke

    Florian Hanke Does not know how to stop building terrain.

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2019
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    74
    Thanks so much for the point by point feedback, that's very helpful :)

    1. Thanks, I've updated it to move/crawl.
    2. NWI is still an unconscious state. I think it's too edge-case-y for my 1 page limit to specifically mention it.
    3. True, but here I follow the Infinity Wiki which only uses the 2" (see * below).
    4. Good point, fixed!
    5. Thanks!
    6. Too complicated, you're right: I use "Dodge to not be engaged anymore (separate by 1mm)." now.
    7. Good point!
    8. Mines have the Intuitive Attack trait – but maybe I should add a small box describing Camo interactions?
    9. Not listed in the requirements, that is true, but the description is "This Skill allows the user to locate enemies hidden in the form of a Marker, forcing them to reveal the Trooper, Weapon, or Equipment the Marker represents." and the effects description is "target is no longer represented with a Camouflage, TO Camouflage, Impersonation (...) Marker". Or am I wrong?
    10. I wrote "Without LoF to active model / template attack: Use -3 PH". So the template attack is included – I guess it's unclear?

    Updated as version 20200111A with your input :)

    *each player received a sheet with a compilation of their special skills which listed changes to their dodge distances (in the case of Kinematika) etc.
     
    n21lv likes this.
  16. Florian Hanke

    Florian Hanke Does not know how to stop building terrain.

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2019
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    74
    Thank you! And please use it. I'm happy if I can help out (and get a bit of feedback in the process for the next tournament) :)

    Lean Out is an entire order common skill, http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Lean_Out. Lean Out I decided to leave out, since it's rather rarely used (where I play) – it's one of those skills that I wish would be doable as a combination of the other skills (it is a combination of Move + BS Attack, with the only difference that you get partial cover in some cases).
     
  17. n21lv

    n21lv SymbioHate

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2017
    Messages:
    587
    Likes Received:
    754
    True. My point was Dogged also counts as an Unconscious state, but it is not compatible with healing, unlike NWI. Maybe it's better to list that as an exception instead.

    You're not entirely wrong, but also not completely correct :) Troopers with Holoprojector are one of the exceptions here (as well as the recent addition of Decoy skill). One example where you can declare Discover against Troopers that are not hidden in the form of a Marker are models in Holoecho state. While technically in a Marker state (I hate this term as it's not described anywhere in the rules), Holoechoes can be represented by miniatures, and you're not required to place a Holoecho marker next to one of them before you start your first Active turn, so your opponent can actually Discover one of them despite them not having any kind of marker nearby. You can also try to discover a Trooper that is using Holoprojector L1 -- it also doesn't use any kind of Marker.

    You still have to use the -3 MOD when rolling Dodge against a deployable template weapon, even if you have LoF to it. Maybe it's not worth a full-text mention, but I would probably have it as a footnote or something.
     
  18. Florian Hanke

    Florian Hanke Does not know how to stop building terrain.

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2019
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    74
    Very good point, thanks!

    Thanks!

    Added, cheers!

    Hmmm, the crossed out eye on Intuitive Attack and Speculative Fire is wrong – I mainly based the icons on this chart's labels: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/All_Abilities_Chart. They need to be asterisks, with a bit more explanation. I'll have to figure out a concise description – and whether the eligibility to attack without previous discovery needs to be mentioned (probably, but how).

    Perhaps too edge casey for beginners, if interesting.

    I was first unsure what to make of your feedback to be honest, since you included e.g. Command Tokens, which are in the advanced rules, which are not what I am going for on this beginner cheat sheet. The cognitive overload for beginning Infinity players is real (which is why Red Veil etc. have multiple scenarios which use a fraction of the full rules, often also simplifying the rules) and my limit is one page – I also provided separate special skill/ammo type sheets specific to each list and the list itself, and a small deployment cheat sheet to each player. So each player got 3 sheets of paper (plus the small deployment cheat sheet per table), which is already a lot to handle for beginners. Personally, I'd love to get it down to two, but I don't think this is possible for Infinity.

    Good point – I rewrote it to "Place in base contact with enemy declaring or performing order up to 2” away. Counts as a Dodge." (Not using "moves" since an enemy just standing there is also a valid target).
    Not quite a teleport, since "You cannot declare Engage if the reactive trooper would be incapable of reaching his target even if it is closer than 2 inches (for example, if there is a wall or an insurmountable chasm in the way).", but after reading the rules again, almost a teleport.

    Thanks for the helpful feedback! I'm going to have to read the rest of it tomorrow morning.

    Updated to version 20200111B with your input.
     
    #38 Florian Hanke, Jan 11, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  19. Florian Hanke

    Florian Hanke Does not know how to stop building terrain.

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2019
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    74
    Thanks again for the detailed feedback! I've included it where possible. For example, I've visually combined steps that belong together and clarified order collection / order spending. I've also used the correct language/labels where possible. There is no space for impetuous phase / orders phase, but here it's important that they do it right first ("First [spend] all impetuous" does that). I've excluded command tokens, as they are from the advanced rules. I wasn't sure whether to include coherency checks – I don't use fireteams in beginner's tournaments, and synched troopers are explained on the army lists. This was never an issue giving a short explanation. It's important, yes, but I'd say more for the intermediate stage.

    In any case, the sheet has improved once more, thanks again! :slightly_smiling_face:

    Updated to version 20200112A with your input.
     
  20. Florian Hanke

    Florian Hanke Does not know how to stop building terrain.

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2019
    Messages:
    105
    Likes Received:
    74
    Good point! Since it's an exception I've listed it on each player's army list-specific special skills cheat sheet. (So when players use it, they immediately see that it can't be healed)

    :)
    There are some issues with the non-specification or usage of marker state or model / trooper in the rules. Something I hope is cleared up with N4.
    Same here – if one had to place markers next to all (apparent) holoechoes, we'd have no issue. With models, you only have to place one, even, instead of three.

    I think this is a case of an exception in an added special skill and should be best handled in the description of the holoecho special skill, the same as with dogged, above.

    Ah, you're right, it's still not correct – I can probably fit that in :) Or maybe "no lof to an active model attacking with a template weapon: -3", since deployables are not models…?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  • About Us

    We are a company founded in 2001 in Cangas (Spain), and devoted to design and manufacture games and figures. Our main product, Infinity the Game, was born with the ambition to satisfy the most demanding audience, offering the best quality.

     

    Why are we here?

     

    Because we are, first and foremost, players.

  • Quick Navigation

    Open the Quick Navigation