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My Guija wish List

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Azuset, Aug 2, 2019.

  1. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    There are plenty of both, in my experience.
     
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  2. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    Do you understand the difference between "me" and "people"? Or are you just being antagonistic with me?

    Or I'm not allowed to say Yu Jing is a mess when it comes to rules even when they have sweet models? I don't really get your point besides you somehow wanting to have some kind of moral upper hand over me or something

    Also, I love YJ aesthetic, but I happen to also love Aleph's aesthetic, it's that forbidden in your strange sense of ethics too?
     
  3. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    Well how about you? Did you pick your faction mainly based on stats or aesthetics?
     
  4. atomicfryingpan

    atomicfryingpan Well-Known Member

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    I dont care about any moral high ground. You argued as if there is no reason to play yu jing because pano can do it better. The reason most people probably play or picked yu jing is most likely they liked the models/aesthetic. You also said that's why you picked yu jing so I'm surprised you don't see that probably being the reason most people play the faction.
     
  5. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    There are a lot of people who pick their factions taking rules into account, there are also other people who (gasp!) can like several factions and pick the one that's stronger.

    And anyway none of this have anything to do with me being able to say Yu Jing is getting the short end of the stick time and again. I don't understand how that's arguing in bad faith to you, but I have the feeling you are just grasping for something to discredit me as an user and not my arguments.

    Have a nice day.
     
    Hecaton likes this.
  6. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    I picked my first army (HB, lather on Haqq in general) because of them having enough "tricks and dirty fighting" rules to make their background/theme felt through gameplay process rather than being just a tale not existing anywhere but on a text blurb somewhere in the manual, because their style/theme is a reference to history and culture mostly ignored by modern fiction, and because their minis were just fine to me (later releases were even better).

    So: playstyle, theme, minis, in that order. With the caveat that playstyle argument despite being #1 is mostly what brought me to Infinity in general - as it highlights things you can do in this game compared to more streamlined wargames rather than something unique to HB, while theme and not that ancient-and-stupid-looking model range ensured Haqq won over other armies, especially Ariadna of that period.

    My second army was IA because its trademark playstyle is almost the opposite of classic Haqq, because it was built on then-unique mechanic and because it was more competent at this LI thing as body spam was starting to cause headaches to me. At the time HB didn't have Asawuib Core, RTF did not exist yet and QK didn't click with me, so IA it was.

    So: variety, uniqueness and practical concerns (in a sense).

    As you can see, I don't look much at competitiveness, at least before getting into faction, but it's definitely something I can be upset over. But when it comes to gaming, I'd rather quit than swap character/faction/whatever for stronger one I don't like.

    Admittedly, I'm nowhere near that level where armies matter at least as much as me playing like shit, so there's that.
     
  7. Joametz

    Joametz Chinese Empire in Space enthusiast

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    If you want to play TAGs, it is most definetly true that CA and PanO are the best factions to do it: Sphinx, Cutter, Avatar, Tikbalang... Those are all amazing. Guijia changes make it decent IMO, and I will try it out in missions where you benefit from bringing one.

    I still think it needs either MA1-2 or a slight CC buff.
     
  8. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    MA would certainly be enough, nonetheless because it would give it Stealth
     
    Azuset likes this.
  9. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Yeah Teampro exists for normal duos, but normally Special fireteams have never been legal for Vanilla. Same way Tai Sheng technically can't join a Zuyong Duo (as dumb as that is) because she's not a Zuyong outside of IA. I can't think of any other instance where a Vanilla army has access to any of its special duos, which makes me think it might be an error for it to be showing up for Krit and Krit only.

    EDIT:


    Have you got a link to that by chance for posterity's sake? I asked a very similar question about Patsy and it was never answered.

    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/patsys-faq-update.34348/#post-275475
     
    #69 Triumph, Sep 3, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
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  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    My hope is that this will make the Guijia sufficiently competitive that it's worth taking to a tournament about once or twice per year. Looking purely at stats, I don't think I can see Sphinx, Cutter, Tikbalang, etc needing this same change, but hopefully their increased performance will not lead to this becoming Year of the TAG which could have dire consequences for the Guijia's future when the nerf hits across the board as well. Hopefully a potential nerf will roll the change back from TAGs that are beyond the so-called MBTs.

    Still, I would prefer Natural Born Warrior over Martial Arts because it makes Guijia vs O-Yoroi a fairly even grudge-match. Hell, I'd prefer Natural Born Warrior to replace Martial Arts across Yu Jing for the same reason. A Clear style difference.
     
  11. Joametz

    Joametz Chinese Empire in Space enthusiast

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    I was thinking about it yesterday! Actually, my thought was "is there a way to make it decent at CC without giving it stealth or something?". NBW gives you stealth, I know, but should it? I understand being stealthy if you're a martial artist but NBW sound more of a brawler to me.
     
  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Guard would not give you Stealth, but I don't think there's a reason to deny a Yu Jing CC creature Stealth.
     
  13. SpectralOwl

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    SymbioMates.

    More realistically, Chest Mines are a great weapon with their +3 CC bonus and can actually be used against all troops in base contact, much more useful for a S7 TAG than most others, and the self-detonation is very likely to go off if the TAG loses due to its high ARM preventing overkill. This would mean that any CC assassin not wielding a monofilament weapon would risk eating uncontested Shock hits and leaving the Guijia standing for an Engineer fix.
     
    Azuset, Mahtamori and Joametz like this.
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I like it!

    But... maybe not for Guijia, maybe more of an Anaconda or Scarface kind of TAG thing.
     
  15. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    There should be a rule within TAG maybe that they can’t use stealth unless they have camo of some sort. Hell, it can’t use Cautious Movement or go Prone so why would it be able to do Stealth?

    Forgive me for suggesting a rule within a rule though!
     
  16. Awash in Blood

    Awash in Blood Agent of Devastation

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    Mmmm... Hot TAG on TAG action......
     
  17. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Hello again, old friend nested skillset.
     
  18. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    How about Assault or Berserk? Neither of those include stealth, do they? Berserk would make it a reliable threat in CC with good potential to tank the enemy's hit and Assault works nicely with the 10" combined movement, although with a worse chance to actually land the hit.

    Kokram Duo would also make more sense, if he can repair the damage the Guijia took while berserking.
     
    #78 Knauf, Sep 3, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
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  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The unit types are woefully under-utilised for showing rules distinct to a unit type, causing them to be spread out across a myriad of skills, so gathering all the exceptions (at time of print) for TAGs under the heading for TAGs is necessary and the appropriate place for this.

    That said, I think specifically the Stealth use for camo is the one that needs to go away. Not just for TAGs, but all models, and then nest it with Infiltration skill only - the rest should have it on a model-for-model basis. Crane? Stealthy bastard. Mushashi? Stealthy. Achilles? Loud speakers and flood lights announcing his presence. Joan/Willy? With all the shouting and motivating they do!? You've got to be kidding me! No Stealth for them!
     
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  20. Janzerker

    Janzerker Invincible Angry

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    With the new ITS season rules now all factions can fit 11 orders into a Limited Insertion list The few armies with NCO or those able to play double TAG lists in a reliable way can actually reach 12 orders. Many Invincible lists aim for 14 orders in a single group, which still allows some flexibility and options. That was the strength of the sectorial and why it was so limited: being able to bring 3 - 4 orders more than the rest of armies with a single combat team.

    "Thanks" to the new ITS season rules that advantage is diluted. The difference in orders being reduced to 2 - 3 only, but the limitations in IA still are the same despite the rest of factions didn't get any drawback for what they have gained.

    The lists (with single group) I have tried to come up with that make use of the Guijia in IA generally end up with 13 orders and having to give up on some support.and tactical tools.

    Invincible Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 37)
    PANGGULING FTO (Repeater) Light Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13)
    GŪIJIĂ MULTI HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / DA CCW. (2 | 88)
    [​IMG] GŪIJIĂ PILOT Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. ()
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
    HǍIDÀO Engineer Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 28)

    6 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    This one is missing KHD, doctor and an alternative attack vector able to accomplish objectives (Zensha, LiuXing, Hulang, … )

    Invincible Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    ZHANSHI Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    ZHANSHI (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 12)
    HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 37)
    PANGGULING FTO (Repeater) Light Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13)
    GŪIJIĂ MULTI HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / DA CCW. (2 | 88)
    [​IMG] GŪIJIĂ PILOT Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. ()
    KOKRAM FTO (Fireteam: Duo) Combi Rifle + E/Mitter, Chain-colt, E/Mauler / 2 Heavy Pistols, Knife. (0 | 39)
    MÓWÁNG (NCO) Red Fury, Akrylat-Kanone / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (1 | 52)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    I have managed to reach 15 orders but once again at the expense of useful tactical tools.

    Invincible Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)
    GŪIJIĂ MULTI HMG, Heavy Flamethrower / DA CCW. (2 | 88)
    [​IMG] GŪIJIĂ PILOT Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Knife. ()
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
    TAI SHENG Mk12, Chain-colt, Stun Grenades / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (0 | 45)
    MECH-ENGINEER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    CHAĪYÌ Yaókòng Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    So my point is that IA Limited Insertion lists that try to use the Guijia will normally end up with 13 orders and missing some tools. Meanwhile most of the factions building a LI list will have 11 and some of them 12 orders. Therefore IA has lost power due to season XI of ITS. I really wonder if it's so difficult for Game developers and testers to realize about this fact, eh @HellLois or whoever had this idea about TacAwar for all TAGs.

    Thinking about this the answer I have reached is that if IA lists with Guijia need to be able to keep the advantage in orders usual IA lists have, and given the fact how limiting and difficult is to fit a NCO in the same list with a Guijia,, THEN it's the Guijia who needs to become NCO (+2 points for a total of 90 pts). The idea of 111-119 points (Daoying + Guijia) generating 4 orders might sound a bit crazy at first, but if you keep in mind the Guijia is just a plain "no frills" TAG it doesn't sound so powerful. Actually it allows the Guijia to fit well into the IA lists by allowing to offer an alternative to the usual Zuyong haris/core powered by NCO while still keeping the usual advantage of orders. As the final touch I would give Duo to the Guijia profile in IA, thus allowing it to interact with the wildcards of the army. That would give the extra flexibility needed.

    So if you ask me how to fix the Guijia, to the current profile add

    + NCO
    + Duo (IA only)