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JSA Gut Check

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by MikeTheScrivener, Apr 5, 2019.

  1. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    you know, I've never really considered this guy in a serious manner – I usually just opted for the Rui Shi instead but you raise an interesting point about how alternative marker states are becoming more useful because of the rise of MSV and MSV linked troopers. You also get a similar rangeland weapon without the SWC tax of the Rui Shi.
     
  2. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    I recently tried the Lu Duan, and it proved to be pure gold for just 21 points.
     
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  3. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    There's three things that need to be kept in mind about this:

    1) representation rate is completely irrelevant to army strength

    2) ranking in the middle third or second quartile isn't "performing quite good."

    3) saying JSA doesn't have a response to a Kamau link isn't being negative, it's stating a hole in JSA design that became apparent after the introduction of the Kamau link. Nothing in the game I feel is so meta-defining as that link.
     
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    So I don't play JSA, but can't you attack it with the MSV 2 Kempeitai + friends or a Marksmanship Rui Shi? Or have an infiltrator murder his fireteam buddies?
     
  5. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Both of the first two rely on getting within 24 inches for range band reasons, at which point point the Rui Shi is slightly favored (44% to wound, 32% to be wounded) and the Kempeitai is still not favored (35% to wound, 37% to be wounded). Having a superior infiltrator do it relies on a roll that has a 25% chance of failing.

    I don't want to rely on a 75% chance to see if I get to play a game, do you?
     
  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    With the fireteam bonuses the Kempeitai is beating the Kamau. And the Rui Shi is a good choice due to the fact that even if it gets hit with a MSR shot, you can probably retry it and go again with an Engineer. The O-Yoroi might take a few orders to do it, but statistically will down the Kamau before it goes down.

    Well, that's one option. You also might be able to get a non-superior infiltrator in on that fireteam. Or just bite the bullet and do a coordinated order attack on the Kamau. It is a tricky situation, you're right, but just because JSA doesn't have anything that beats it in a shootout at >32" isn't an insurmountable problem.
     
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  7. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I did miss the fireteam bonuses (had the marksmanship mod still on but didn't add burst mod), but I'm not sure how I'm then supposed to expect my Kempeitai and 4 order monkeys to survive even the lightest amount of resistance in the middle of the table. The O-Yoroi works eventually but it's about even odds to wound vs. take a wound and on average it's going to take you 3 orders to do so.

    The coordinated order seems to be the most consistent and reliable way to do it, but you're still basically guaranteeing one thing you throw at the Kamau is dead. I can't think of almost any other armies that can do so little against it.
     
  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Probably because your ninjas are in the way? Maybe spend an order to pull back? IDK. Attacking something always comes with a cost.

    Yeah but the O-yoroi has 3 STR so can afford to take a wound or two, especially if you've got an Engineer nearby (but repair early because you can't re-roll).

    Every faction has things they have trouble against.
     
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  9. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Except here the cost is incredibly high. I don't see how spending most of my order pool manipulating a link into a good shot for my Kempei and setting myself up to lose most of it (5 of my 12-13 regular orders) to take down a single, 30 point linked piece is representative of good balance.

    Sure, but most factions have at least some kind of weird one-off niche solution that at least exists (arguably that's the Shikami with Nimbus here, I guess?). Stuff like the Arjuna in OSS or Aelis in Tohaa. And very few factions have a weakness against something that is (again) as meta-defining or performing as well as that linked Kamau.
     
  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Hmm, forgot about the nimbus grenade. If you use the nimbus in the O-Yoroi setup it tilts the odds in your favor.

    I kind of see it as one of those things that JSA has to play around. People were making top 16 at the rumble with JSA so it can't be all bad. It's not like MAF or anything.
     
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  11. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Speaking with experience as both a JSA player and a VIRD player:
    JSA needs to find the board's more dense terrain zones, where the Kamau can't project her firepower. Virtually every table at least has one imposing center building that blocks cross-table LoF, so a Kempetai + link needs to keep that interposed until they can work into the right position. There's some danger of counter-attack, but JSA has good tools (Ryuken-9, Koalas) to help defend that. And risking 5 bodies to take down the MSV2 is worth it.

    At Rumble, many of my tables did not have good, obvious vantage points for a Sniper to just lay waste to everything. And if they did, they tended to be so tall that the Kamau and her entire link were anchored to that position the entire game. These are the kind of subtle tactical shifts that you have to try an recognize and play off of.
     
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  12. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I dunno about specialist, but I really like the rest of this proposal.
     
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  13. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    I'm probably alright with JSA becoming less character-centric. Characters are a nice way to limit the AVA on something, and CB clearly wants that done with smoke, but having a non-character option for smoke would be nice too.

    I'd be happy to see Domaru get wildcard, give Tanko the 2 + linetrooper linkability common for HI in other Sectorials, and then give Tanko a smoke LGL that costs SWC.

    The result is that Domaru get to be the "leaders" that the lore and current linkability options imply. Tanko would be more like the common soldiers with ad hoc armor and unit structure that their lore implies. JSA gets a useful shooting phase tool that they seriously need (cheap linked missile launcher or Flammenspeer.) And then JSA as a whole gets a flexible smoke option that isn't cheap (heavy infantry cost, SWC cost) but suddenly it opens up their mobility and aggression game a bit more.
     
  14. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    That's another good idea!
     
  15. EpicDiceFail

    EpicDiceFail Patron Saint of Horrible Dice

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    You going to Gateway Gauntlet?
     
  16. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Missouri is a long way from NJ unfortunately :(
     
  17. EpicDiceFail

    EpicDiceFail Patron Saint of Horrible Dice

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    Too bad...Iwas just noticing some of your missions are the same as some in the Gauntlet. After a year away from the game, I’m getting back on the horse.
     
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  18. neostrider

    neostrider Well-Known Member

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    Lu Duan is amazing. 0 swc, cheaper than our HIs, marker state to get midfield, good gun combo, and has Aragato as a holo1 fake, and msv1 because why not.

    My take is current JSA is high risk moderate reward. If domaru can survive getting close, he can murder about as well as any other soldier. If oniwanban can make the supInf roll and sneak up on a target, they murder slightly better than an Emily gl spec fire. Daiyokai is fun but practically the same or worse than other S5. I could do this for almost every unit or strat.

    I have fun with this until I'm ready to concede. Soldiers of Fortune is an amazing format because my deceptions are doubled with the inclusion of father sforza and AD troops. It's not automatically HD troopers.

    The advantage I feel a lot if people attribute other armies is redundancy and forgivable losses. Without a heroic number of orders or a Rambo that consistently earned back their points, JSA needs to flip a coin 2 times and get Heads both times.

    I don't want another MSV2 long range piece as the counter to MSV2 long range piece. We need more dimensions of tactics.

    The simplest way to solve this in my mind is dogged on oniwanbans. Let them die, but let them finish their missions doing it. This is an answer to ARO pieces, order spam (kill Lt 1 turn without all 17 orders), or obvious Rambos. With 1 strategic kill you open the way for other strats to get out of DZ.

    Or we don't solve it and that's JSAs niche. Win hard, risk all. Still fun to watch
     
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  19. KestrelM1

    KestrelM1 Well-Known Member

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  20. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    This is the part people take issue with. Yes, JSA will just crush anything it can CC with, but getting into CC is almost never safe with a Domaru.

    Also, you seem to have picked sub-optimal choices in a few of these situations. A tag should 100% flame an oniwaban given the option (because it forces a dodge which preserves your TAG for an additional order), and remember that Spec Fire could not possibly result in harm to Emily (whereas there's a 30% chance of your Domaru dropping on his way in -- which is 30% more likely than Emily is to get harmed.) Spec fire has always meant trading order efficiency for zero risk of losing your troop.

    Just look at what happens on a failure between the Domaru and Fusilier -- sure a Domaru will brick a Guijia, but 50% of the time he's wounded and 30% he's down. A Fusilier is less than half of the cost of a Domaru, but about 3 times as likely to survive the exchange.
     
    #40 meikyoushisui, Apr 17, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019