Part of the problem with Sun Tze is that you end up spending such an enormous amount of points on a trooper that doesn't want to do a whole lot. Most of the 'legendary commander' units will fit into their army in a way that gets more value than strictly their command abilities (Saladin is pretty basic, but he's also 30 points less than Sunny). Avatar, Wally, Joan, etc, are all competent pieces in their own right. Sun Tze is mediocre at best as a leader, but he has a hard time providing value and utility beyond that. It also really doesn't help that ISS' recent glow up is going to have them running tighter than ever, leaving very little room for troops with nothing to do but twiddle their thumbs.
Still needs another large buff on top of that, he was only niche before and that's when Strategos was way stronger and TI was also Bioimmunity.
Sunny boy needs: Veteran Lt+1 order Bioimmunity Specialist operative No increase in points. Wouldn't hurt if he got BS 13 on top of that ;)
Maybe I am missing something, but why would Sun Tzu need veteran? He is already immune to the isolation state due to Immunity (Total).
Not from hacking, Oblivion can take out the HI version, though admittedly he's got OK BTS and good WIP for the Reset)
You could also just give him Immunity (Comms Attack) or Immunity (Hacking)... sounds like an easy fix.
This arm-chair game designing serves no purpose, in my opinion. Instead I think it is clear that Sun Tzu has a role to play in ISS. He makes a good leader and he is a valuable and obvious target. This has synergy with the faction, as we have massive access to holomask. We can use this "vulnerability" to our advantage, whilst still benefiting from a great leader. The HI version is incredibly durable and valuable for zone of control scenarios (Quadrant Control etc) Whilst the V2 still provides you the leadership bonuses whilst giving yo access to a good long range gunfighter. I really think it is time people to start pissing with the dicks they have, instead of dreaming up the possible dicks they could have
@valukr , mostly I just find this stuff fun. I know nothing's likely to come of it, but trying to take CB's tools and make a better Infinity is a nice mental exercise. As for Sunny T, well... he can be used as you've mentioned, but he's a big liability for his points, primarily because of Hacking. He's expensive enough that you'll need to use him and his kit demands use in the midfield, where opponents can quickly immobilise and destroy him. Many of the game's top factions also include linked Pitchers or Impersonators that can lock down and kill him before you even get use out of him, and you're most likely not finding room for a Pheasant with his price tag. If you can cover his weaknesses you're golden, but that can mean trying to outhack Jazz through a Repeater more than I'd like.
Massive? There's 3. Kanren, Sforza, and Taowu. Would you actually hold back one of your few forward specialist to just holomask as Sun? Sforza is not bad and Taowu is another guy that really won't do much other than pretend to be Sun. But he's good for that at least. Sun Tze's expense means you don't have the other points for the guys that actually do something. I like the Marksman version. I just wish he lived up to the name by actually having marksman. I would take the non-Lt. versions if they were cheaper. He pays for having Strategos he can't use. I agree though that we need to play some games with them. It's like they are afraid to give Yu Jing good characters. None of ours live up to the likes of a Jazz, Joan, McMurrough, Kitsune, Sheskin, Uxia, etc. It's like they are giving YJ characters just because it's expected. Or it's a mistake like Kwon.
Congratulations, you've already spent what everyone considers too many points on Sun Tze because he's overcosted in the first place, now we are spending even more points on either putting two characters of questionable value in your army unlinked, or fucking over a Kanren by forcing it to deploy in your DZ. All to try and make a character that isn't even worth it in the first place better. All in all an absolute waste of time and effort.
@SpectralOwl The pitcher problem is the same problem every faction has to deal with, it is not exclusive to us. Many factions have hacking vulnerability. You can look at it several ways, I tend to look at it in the sense that if anything we have an advantage - let them shoot their pitchers, they have no guarantee that they will be shooting them real HI/hackers because of our access to holomask. Additionally, we have an assassin who can deal with enemy hackers (ninja) or KS to remove the repeaters. @Space Ranger Your implication is that Sun Tzu costs too much and therefore, we do not have enough points for orders/tools - That is simply not true. We have access to KS, the cheapest orders in the game(bar imetrons), the cost is something we can deal with easily and to suggest Sun Tzu does nothing is simplistic. Too often such opinions are formed from viewing things in isolation, rather within context. @Triumph Mate, I've engaged with you in the past, I rather not. Thanks
Oh really? Pretty sure we've spoken exactly twice to date here. Once about cheesing Mad Traps with the Hsien probably not being the best thing for player growth, following on from another post explaining how it worked to a different player. You ended up liking both posts apparently as you gave both of them a thumbs up. And once where I pointed out a bug with Army.
While defenses against Pitcher-diving are available (though dubiously effective; those elite Hacking factions are a problem for a reason!), the bigger issue is standard midfield play. Sun Tze v1 only gets a MULTI Rifle at best, so unless your opponent dives your DZ with a Core Fireteam (unlikely unless they're Steel Phalanx) he's going to have to advance to get value out of his gun and his beefiness. Fighting up close without the support of a Fireteam, good density of your own midfielders, or overwhelming superiority in ranged ARO leaves him vulnerable to even the likes of PanO's Skirmishers popping out from around a corner with a Hacking Device, bricking him, then murdering him with a Combi Rifle in two or three orders. He might still have a place in scenarios where the enemy has to come to him like Firefight, after all a Speculo Killer may as well be hitting him with a violin bow thanks to TI, but in all-comers scenarios I'd leave him at home, and even in LT-hunting scenarios I'd take a list with a Deva, CG or even a Zhanying in case the opponent brought one of the nastier Pitcher factions.
If you advance Sun Tzu into the midfield, before clearing it, then you're asking for trouble - imo. I honestly agree and think he is very mission specific. I would take him in any scenario where my LT is being hunted or where you need to control zones/consoles. I personally think the V2 is far easier to use and is a great back up gunfighter that can make an enemy think twice before leaving models in a fire lane. Taking midfield control is going to be key for ISS, I think. Coming from playing Morats for last 12 months, I have been SPOILT for choice in taking the midfield (preta, Daturazi, smoke, CC, templates, Krakots etc). ISS have a similar problem but very different tool-set, very interesting
The big thing about Sun Tze is that somehow he didnt get any N4 discounts. BSG version cost exacly as much as in N3. All HI's got Hackable discount worth around 4-5 points. ARM got cheaper. BS got cheaper. I remember that standart Orks got almost 10 points discount for example. And Sunny has had 2 of his skills nerfed on top of that without any compensation. Meanwhile Avatar got over 10 points cheaper. They nerfed his Strategos but buffed ODD (no burn is big). On top of that they gave him extra command token (skill exclusive to Sun and Saladin in N3) and Lt+1 order (in N3 skill mainly YJ, others had max 1Lt2, never in vanilla and only in 1 sectorial, Asura in OSS, Tarik in Ramah). At this point he is around 10 points over what he should cost.
Units in Sunny's price range dropped 10 to 15 points, probably 10 as it's a bit hard to gauge how the lines got drawn, but units like TAGs and Achilles got a lot cheaper while units like Zuyong "merely" got No2, a bit of CC, Haris and Duo (and now that those no longer exist I'm wondering a bit about the prices of units that used to have them because you kind of clearly payed at least a point for having those skills). Qiang also got boned in the same way as Sun, going up in price instead of down. Triumph's assessment of Sunny is spot on. The price of a unit affects what the rest of the force can bring and stronger isn't always better. Since Sunny is so expensive he should either be strong or he should be cost effective enough that other units can pick the slack up and he's neither. The LT roll by definition of what it does can't be too important and Sunny has invested a truly ridiculous amount of points into winning that roll without going high enough to actually make that much of an impact on winning chances. Meanwhile, Sun2 is not bad. Soaked up a heft discount and got a small reshuffle of abilities. I'm actually a tiny bit sad the Multi Rifle profile got nuked. Taowu has some pretty dumb pricing as well, it's like he's priced as if carrying a Combi, but it's not too bloody to plunk down two Suns on the table using Taowu.
Ok you have KS, when you need hackers, Sophie, damn D-Charges, DA CCW or just a big gun to kill they enemy. Sun plus CG+KS is 78-93pts. and 0.5SWC. And then maybe Taowu at 26pts just to look like him? Also, KS give you orders but they also take slots.
