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Is CB trolling?

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Zewrath, May 11, 2019.

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  1. Janzerker

    Janzerker Invincible Angry

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    Wrong. Zuyong is an optimized profile, but Hospitalier and Riot Grrl are a different beast. They directly cheat the points system and exploit a bad designed rule. It seems people forget the 2 points less in Zuyong's PH stat and the -1 ARM. On the other hand Hospitallier and Riot give up on nothing, abuse frenzy and get stats upped an extra gear/weapons with no costs, and in the case of Hospitallier with a point discount. That's not optimization, that's insulting players.

    As a matter of fact: the Hospitallier profile is a unit that has been in the game since the very first day, even before the 1st edition rulebook in a time when we used to play with a small booklet of ultra simplified rules featured in each starter box. In all these years the Hospitallier profile has remained exactly the same until now, excluding some minor differences like original profile was MOV 4-2 (like all the 1st ed HIs) CC 16 (usual stat value pre 3rd ed era, when a ninja was CC 17 for comparison) and the 6th sense lvl 1 the Hospitallier had int he beginning. The cost of the unit with MULTI rifle and AP ccw was 48 pts and that's counting the frenzy discount.
    In 3rd edition it dropped from 48 to 37. And post third offensive from 37 to 35 while getting the AP weapon upgraded to DA for free.

    On the other hand other HIs like Orc and Brigada, also original units, have remained the same during all this time. Same stats, and more or less same cost. It's not that they are bad but that anything else looks bad when compared with units that abuse the frenzy exploit. That and well... the Hospitallier is a very special snowflake that represents how the conception of MO by PanO players is a complete utopia.

    Or you know… why not directly fix the root of the problem? There must be rules that allow impetuous to affect link members instead of just ignoring it AND frenzy must kick in the same moment it's triggered. Nothing of that stupid rule of frenzy not triggering until the beginning of the players next turn.
     
  2. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    The "Guarda de Asalto" cries a lot... :P

    The idea of frenzy triggered in the very same moment the troup make a wound sounds to me really cool. You have killed some one, congratulations, here is your new order, go a kill more XD. I'am not saying it in an ironic tone.

    :)

    I really doubt that the old "point system" will be follow anymore. The formula should be other now. If not, probably it should evolve
     
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  3. SpectralOwl

    SpectralOwl White-Faced Invincible

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    Honestly I'm just in favour of killing Frenzy as a rule. It's one more thing to keep track of for comparatively little benefit as compared to normal Impetuous or non-Fury units and tends to show up almost entirely on linkable troops that never see it activate.

    Back on topic, Krit's guns aren't too impressive for FTF rolls, but look like they could do horrific damage if they get an uncontested shot. Could make for a nasty distraction working alongside the Guijia; TAGs can be brought down easily enough with focused effort, but creating a situation where the enemy needs to face both Krit and the TAG at once could create some real risks for the enemy's few anti-armour options. Especially with the Automedkit involved, since no matter where the Doc is, if both Krit and the Guijia are still alive at end of turn, even unconscious, they can keep up the attack. Might get an opponent to waste a few orders on KO'd high-ARM targets when they really need to work on an objective.

    Still not going to actually try it though. Krit's just too weird and the TAG's too expensive for IA, no matter what it can duo with.
     
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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure Zuyong can be considered "optimised" in the face of Hollowmen. There isn't much bloat, but there's a tiny bit (two pistols and useless point spent on CC), but for +3 points and -2 PH the Hollowmen gets +1 ARM, +3 BTS, for the most part better MOV distribution, Super-jump, a Chain Colt, two UNC levels, courage and immunity to LOL and Retreat. All without cheating using blatant cost reducers like Frenzy.
    (And as a side-note, they are also repaired using Engineer instead of Doctor, which would mesh a lot better with Yu Jing)

    But I don't particularly care for "optimised" Zuyong. I want a Yu Jing Zuyong. And since JSA left us, Yu Jing is no longer the melee faction and the best identity I can find is "Jack of All Trades", but if I want to be mean I'd say Haqq's identity is "Yu Jing, but with good specialists" or Nomads identity is "Yu Jing, but with great hacking".

    I'd like Yu Jing units, particularly Zuyong, to be equipped in a more military fashion. As much as this might be heresy, but Tai Sheng should be more of a norm than a deviation. Just... not the Automedikit. I'm talking about having a decent weapon for most range bands. (Unusually) decent melee, decent rifle, I'd like to see grenades (not smoke, just simple grenades) be more or less standard, and keeping an okay short-range weapon if a SWC weapon is purchased.
    Basically, I think CC 16 should be the Yu Jing norm (and no, I don't think this "upgrade" is worth any more points than was already spent "moving" from 13 to 14). I think Line Infantry Invincibles should have courage and I think elite Invincibles like Shang-Ji should have Martial Arts 1. I also think that specialist penetration in Yu Jing should be unusually high as a result.
    Essentially Do Three Things Well and Nothing Poorly is the philosophy I'd like to see. By Comparison, Pan-O is "Everyone a Marksman", and Haqq is more along the lines of "Soldier, Excel". Pan-O are all Marksmen compared to troops of the same archetype and they will do their specific task well (older Pan-O would have too low WIP and PH to do their specific task "well", but the newer Pan-O doesn't seem to suffer this drawback) while Haqq seem to have soldiers who are excellent at one specific task other than direct combat (a Haqq Doctor would heal on 17 instead of the norm of 13 and a Haqq assassin would infiltrate twice as deep on 14 instead of the norm of 9).
    For Yu Jing I'd like to see Combi, Grenades, Chain-Colt, Pistol, Knife be the default profile (the one you attach Lieutenant or Paramedic to) and the only profile that's not a specialist or special weapons profile for any given unit.

    Yes, that'd make already expensive Yu Jing troops even more expensive, meaning it's far, far, from a trivial fix, but it'd hopefully make Yu Jing more interesting to play than the current "pay extra for the privilege of being mediocre"

    As a much, much, smaller thing. Wouldn't it be interesting if that one Multirifle profile was a Veteran L1?
     
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  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yup, this is the sad truth of it - Nomads have some of the best and definitely the most optimized HI, with the main exception of Mobile Brigada. CB seems gunshy on actually fulfilling the promise of YJ as the "HI faction", given the scattering of NWI instead of two wounds everywhere in IA when they could have just optimized those profiles a bit more and kept them at two wounds. But they have no such qualms about Nomads or PanO.

    It's pretty clear that Nomads have at least one fanboy on the design team who's willing to give them amazing profiles. The advocate for Yu Jing on the design team is either more restrained or doesn't exist, now that JSA is split off.
     
    #425 Hecaton, Jun 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
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  6. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    I think it's worth pointing out, in the apples-oranges comparison of Zuyongs to Hospitallers/Riot Grrrls/Hollowmen: you can compare these links to one another all day long, but it's a deeply pointless exercise if you don't also evaluate the capabilities of their Sectorials, and what they're actually doing on the table.

    Most people can agree that Hospitallers/Riot Grrrls/Hollowmen are good Heavy Infantry links. Riot Grrrls and Hollowmen in particular are outstanding, especially if you don't value Close Combat.

    But at the same time noone considers MO, Bakunin/StarCo or TJC to be top-performing Sectorials. So what's the issue?

    Hearing some people talk, it's like a Frenzied link team broke into their house and stole their TV. They're just furious that CB is assigning a point discount to a unit. It's like that point discount is somehow stealing from them.

    But at the same time, the Frenzy discount often offsets some costs that are arguably too high to begin with (take your pick from all the Frenzied links out there... Hospitallers paying a lot for ARM and CC is a good example... Does anyone really think a Hospitaller deserves to be more expensive? Does anyone supremely value all that ARM and CC?)

    If some abilities result in undercosting (Frenzy and Impetuous) while others abilities are overcosted (ARM value, CC value,) and the cost ends up being fairly balanced in the end... What's the problem?

    Doubly, if the link team is only as good as the supporting units in its Sectorial... What's the problem? You might have the hottest link team in the game, but if they're limited by the overall performance of their Sectorial, I'd qualify that as being fairly balanced. Hollowmen are a good example here. Hollowmen are terrifying on the table, but they have a huge number of soft counters, quite a lot of inherent vulnerabilities, and noone considers TJC to be a true ass-kicker in terms of ITS viability.

    Tying things back to Invincible Army:
    No other Heavy Infantry link is benefiting from Tac Awareness + NCO. If, for some reason, you really want to cross-compare Heavy Infantry link teams, I suggest you do the following:
    1. Build your ideal ITS-valid link team.
    2. Divide their cost by the number of Orders they can spend in the course of a turn.
    You do that very basic exercise, and you discover that a Zuyong link is paying a hell of a lot less in terms of points-per-order than any other Heavy Infantry link. So even though a Zuyong link and a Hollowmen link are similar in cost (let's say ~150 points in both cases) the Zuyong link crushes it in terms of sheer point-to-order efficiency. If a Zuyong link is slightly less effective in combat than a Hollowmen link (debatable, but let's go with it, for the sake of discussion...) but generates and utilizes 30-40% more orders for the same cost... I'd call that equitable in terms of cost balance and tactical capability.

    When you factor in the notion of order efficiency and expenditure, a lot of things make more sense, including SMGs. If you recognize that an SMG takes 1-2 orders more than a Combi to get into its +3 band, and you start evaluating SMGs profiles in the context, they stop feeling so outrageous.

    The majority of the community fails to evaluate cost in the simple context of what it's like to play a game with them. "SMGs are broken because they have multiple ammo types and can go into Suppressive Fire."

    But multiple ammo types are useless if you don't leverage the rangebands to hit anything, they almost always give the opponent a more dangerous ARO option to react with, and Suppressive Fire is still one of the most overrated mechanics in this game. Let's take the simple tactical dilemma of having to take down a smoke-throwing warband in f2f: if an SMG closes to within +3 range, it costs 1-2 orders, and risks a Chain Rifle hit. If it engages from outside that range, it fails to maximize f2f odds and gives the smoke tosser a very real chance of landing smoke. This isn't an uncommon or niche situation... This is Infinity 101. It's also a circumstance where the Combi Rifle is the superior tactical tool. But to hear some players talk, they never think about these very common tabletop occurrences. They're still too busy talking about how an SMG wielder broke into their house and stole their TV.

    These are basic truths of competitive play, which are typically completely ignored when players try to discuss "what's broken."
     
  7. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Because you have other units with only the overcosted components that are simply overcosted.
     
  8. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    Nothing guarantees that hand-adjusted or arbitrary pointcosts would prevent this phenomenon. One of the reasons GW systems are a competitive joke is the subjective point cost assigned to powerful units. While a point formula system isn't perfect, I think it generates much more consistent and accurate pricing compared to the hope that a Dev or Playstester doesn't slip his favorite hand-adjusted rule combo into a live system.
     
  9. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    No, but keeping the current points system ensures that the phenomenon will persist.

    That basically already happens, though. The Riot Grrl profiles are very... fan-ish. And I know there's people at CB who identify strongly with that profile.
     
  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    And most of us laughed at people making that claim, pointing out that Zuyong were CC15 BS13 PH12, with a combirifle instead of the typical Multirifle. And ARM3 instead of ARM4. They're 4pts cheaper than a Wu Ming, comparing BSG to BSG.
     
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  11. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    Much better when you have the devs just cheating their own system so they favorite troops/factions enjoy ultraoptimized options while others can just suck it.

    Yes, I 100% see the difference between devilish evil GW that broke into your house and stole your TV and the "bro company" " /sarcasm
     
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  12. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    TV? More like my car.
     
  13. Cabaray

    Cabaray Well-Known Member
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    Truth to power. Especially on the SMG. Spiral Corps gives you a lot of SMG options but I found out the hard way that my opponent started to outrange me pretty quickly. I could use the modest combi rifle on more then one occasion.

    And on points cost. I don't see CB making cheap profiles to boost sales. I am using units that I use 8 years ago and still go strong. That has more to do with the role they fullfill in a team. Like Barakiel I am more of the holistic approach of an army. I take profiles that are considered overcosted, but with for Instance Spiral Corps an Anaconda is one of the few profiles with an HMG with decent BS behind it. So worth considering if the team your building needs it to punch through.







    Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G930F met Tapatalk
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It's not entirely 100%, but it's funny how certain equipment consistently yields unit profiles that are considered powerful almost universally and mostly independent of metas.
    My opinion, but it was worse before they stuck to their points system. Much worse.
     
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  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yup. That tells you something.
     
  16. Henshini

    Henshini Well-Known Member

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    Top tier tournaments are rarely limited insertion and the infinity core rules favour ~18 model lists. I don’t think anyone plays any HI links at top levels.
     
  17. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    would you really want to pay 4-5 pts more every profile for the true 2W? or as much as 8 pts in some cases?

    Feel free to go check out the MO discussion in PanO, you'll find they argue IA is better than MO for lack of 2W bloat.

    So I guess the grass is always greener to some people.

    Personally I think IA is alright, though mostly the Meta has looked at focusing on the gimmicks of the list than actually building a working core in my opinion.
     
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  18. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    You'd be thoroughly wrong there.

    HI Links are always a danger, Id even go so far as to argue Barakiels Perception of MO, BJC and TJC is flawed and I could name a dozen top players collectively that rate those sectorials.
     
  19. Henshini

    Henshini Well-Known Member

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    I’d love to see those lists. I’ve only seen reports that confirm what I said, but I’d be happy to be proven wrong.
     
  20. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    From my own personal example

    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/panoceania-state-of-the-faction-and-whats-next.33701/page-6

    But at both Novacore and Cancon, TJC Hollowman links, and Bakunin Riot Grrl links have both littered the top 15-20% of the tournament placements. (TWB was recently on White noise, and went 17/16 at Cancon and Novacore with TJC Hollowmen) (@Hachiman Taro will tell you he still rates RiotGrrls as one of the strongest links and lists in the game)

    Additionally Im not the only player in Aus doing well with or rating MO. Rory is another cancon winner and a major fan of MO (he was planning on them at Nova Core initially.
     
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