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PanOceania: State of the Faction, and what's next?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by barakiel, May 30, 2019.

  1. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    Usually, Turn 1 you make an exploitable breach in the opponents defenses with your Peacemaker in Group 2 (you've got 5 orders to do it, after dropping Supportware, and keeping an order to do the same again in a moment), likely losing it in the process, and then exploit it with 10 orders from Group 1 thrown behind a Bulleteer.

    Unless your opponents run hacking heavy (which most don't in the KHD world) you are unlikely to hit many opponents who can deal with that kind of offense.
     
  2. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    For this list style all other three Sectorials have some good reason why you'd want to go for them. Helots & Snake Eaters, 3 Fugazi, Mines & Dart or Hexas & Guards.
    What's the benefit of sticking with MO here?
     
    #102 Teslarod, Jun 8, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
    eciu and Lesh' like this.
  3. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    Errr... Fireteam Core HRLs? (admittedly Varuna can do that too, but they aren't my first choice for this style of build either).

    I'm not sure there is one.

    But the point was more to show that even MO can actually run a pretty solid Remote-focused list.

    That's pretty playable, surprisingly so.
     
  4. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    By that logic everything is playable and building lists doesn't matter.

    I'm all for finding something MO is actually good at and worth playing for.
    From where I stand you can build a much better list than a Remote heavy one in all 3 other PanO Sectorials. Yet they still do Remotes better than MO.

    At this point what's the difference compared to just hitting up the random oist generator and picking a list that somewhat makes sense?
    Until someone comes up with a concept that MO actually does really well (@daboarder any progress on that yet?) I'd prefer we count our blessings and go explore the fun parts of the recent book.

    It's a common thing to go back to what you're comfortable with and get sidetracked during listbuilding. Used to try playing JSA like old MO, which is a horrible mistake since troops that appear quite similar at first vastly differ once you put them into their framework. A Ninja isn't quite a TOFO and Domarus aren't Hospitalers.

    For our example with a Remote centered list, if you swap out everything around the Remotes to recreate the same list you're set up to fail. Part of that is that lists revolve around core pieces, which tend to be something else than Remotes.
    You're usually better off building your List around your HI Link, TAG or triumvirate of Snake Eaters or whatever you want to spend your Orders on.
     
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  5. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    I think you're being a little dramatic.

    MO easily brings the best HI links to any PanO sectorial. In a vacuum our HI links are pretty damn capable compared to most others in the game aswell. Bringing enough pieces to support them is where the sectorial starts to fall apart. It stutters trying to find units that can take out WB, or things that start outside the DZ, you know, things that are pretty necessary for making the HI engine run smoothly.
     
  6. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    *shrugs*

    Maybe it's a meta thing, or maybe it's a "you do you" thing, but I've always found Remote heavy PanOceanian lists pretty damn strong.

    Even minus the two extra Fugazi which the list example I gave would be running if I built it in NCA, it's not exactly weak, and it's not like NCA brings a whole heap more to the table to make it a lot better (Fusilier Hackers for extra cheap Supportware is probably it).
     
  7. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    He ended 6th at Novacore with 4 majors and a down at the last game against @RobertShepherd. So, what is your conclusion? Seems you can reach the top table with MO.
     
  8. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    I look forward to hearing more about how he was running it.

    Saw some interesting stuff getting painted up on the Infinity Australia FB page.

    What were the missions?

    And what was the mission/army matchup he went down in?
     
  9. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Not being stuck with an obvious HI Lt, 2 extra Fugazi, Regulars, Fusiliers and CSUs being much better for less points on top of the ability to field solo pieces that outclass a Bulleteer with the extra points comes to mind.

    You can obviously do whatever you want. I'd personally recommend CA, Onyx or OSS for a Remote heavy setup sonce it's just not PanO's forte.
    Everything can work in Infinity. People just seem to ignore the "why" behind it fairly often. 18 Orders Jotum + Joan sure is nice until the only two troops on your list with a gun better than a Combi bite it.
     
  10. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    Ok, we're clearly in "you do you" territory then.

    Sweet as.

    I'm an NCA player, I've won games after losing every SWC weapon in my list Turn 1. You're playing PanOceania, EVERYTHING can be an attack piece.
     
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  11. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    You'd like it in Morat Land. I really like the aestetics but simply can't get over the numbers

    Part of what I find problematic about MO is that their weakpoints pretty much always come up if you play 5 games.
    The luck required to pull 5/5 is insane.
    At some point someone will get lucky and play well enough to nail it, but at this point 6th place is probably as far as MO gets on a good day with a good player.

    That is the problem with having statistics to confirm your suspicions. MO are doing really bad in ITS.
     
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  12. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    For what Daboarder said to me, he lost because he made a little mistake that Rob punished. At this level, mistakes can cost a lot, even if you're playing Nomads. What you said can be applied to any army and to any list.
     
  13. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    The missions for Novacore were: Supremacy, Supplies Frostbyte, Armoury, Engineering Deck
    I don't know what he played against (I live in France, so I know only what he told to me) but with @barakiel, he and I had some exchange about his lists and how to run them. I won't take him the privilege of revealing his lists but I can say he played with 2 groups for each, Joan V1 as Lt in each with a TOFOOS. The first one has a Teuton core with Teuton Spitfire and the second an OS Link with FK ML. And lots of Sierras.
    He lost 6-1 so, even if it is a major victory for Rob, you can't say it was an easy victory. I'm waiting for his bat reps too.
     
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  14. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    You have no flipping idea teslarod.

    I lost because,
    1) My opponent is an awesome player and it would have been an insanely tough game regardless of faction
    2) I made some poor choices on what fights to pick and when
    3) I was potentially too timid and did not rely on MOs strengths enough midway through the game

    At no point in 5 games did I feel my choice of faction was the wrong one or that my list would have been stronger with a different PanO sectorial. It had the tools it needed to for the missions, and I am confident that I would not have done better with any other Faction. ( and I know MOs strengths won me games, so Im confident I would have done worse)

    But hey, feel free to tell me how to evaluate my own games more, Im all ears
     
    #114 daboarder, Jun 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
  15. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Games were, Ikari, VIRD, Dashat, IA, Dashat.

    I'll write up a proper post later and make its own breakdown/evaluation, I know Rob will be planning his own and look forwards to his evaluation of our game to see if it matches with my own.


    As to the lists used, Ill put the breakdown of why I chose what I did in the debrief

    I used the following list for Supremacy, Frostbyte, Armoury and Engineering Deck

    MO 1.5
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1 [​IMG]2
    TEUTONIC KNIGHT Spitfire / Pistol, AP CCW. (2 | 37)
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22)
    MAGISTER KNIGHT Panzerfaust, Light Shotgun / Pistol, AP CCW. (0 | 22)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    JOAN OF ARC Lieutenant MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (+1 | 49)
    TRAUMA-DOC (Father-Doctor) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    MACHINIST (Father-Engineer) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]3
    SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    MULEBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration, Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
    4 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army


    And this list was built specifically for supplies


    MO 2.5
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]9 [​IMG]1
    FATHER-KNIGHT Missile Launcher / Breaker Pistol, DA CCW. (1.5 | 49)
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges + 1 TinBot A (Deflector L1) / Pistol, DA CCW. (0 | 38)
    KNIGHT OF SANTIAGO Lieutenant (Specialist Operative) Spitfire, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades, D-Charges / Pistol, DA CCW. (1 | 43)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    ORDER SERGEANT Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 13)
    TRAUMA-DOC (Father-Doctor) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 14)
    TECH-BEE (Remote Assistant Level 1, Specialist Operative) Flash Pulse / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 5)
    MACHINIST (Father-Engineer) Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration, Forward Observer) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 27)
    SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2
    SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
    SPEC. SERGEANT (CH: TO Camouflage, Infiltration) MULTI Sniper Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 33)
    6 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army
     
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  16. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
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    wow that's very strange lists, only 9 order on the second, two sierra, no hacker to buff the sierra no pal bot and a teutonic without NCO ! joan +1 CAP on 4 CAP list ^^
    I'm really curious to read your debrief

    on the topic about MO VS VIRD or SAA NCA imo it doesn't matter much when you're on top players layer, it's more HOW you play your list that why I would have a hard time playing those two list above ^^ even as a PanO player
     
  17. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    No intention here of bashing MO over and over just for the sake of bashing. I just wish they were as awesome and flexible as the other 3. It's not just winning in general. Simply winning higher to get another major win in there just adds up over time. Most of the time winning 5 games isn't required to take a top spot. 12+ TP with a good chunk of OP under your belt is often enough.
    Okay here we go.

    This turned out about as I expected.
    Small secondary group because LI lists have problems that are nigh impossible to overcome when you have to go push buttons and kill stuff.
    Despite double Sierras there is no Hacker to buff them and I agree, this is MO and that's how it is. You're already starved for points, simply no space or Orders to justify including a HD.
    Both list run mixed Links with OS/Magisters enabling some HI. That's the main draw of MO after all. Running an OS Link to enable a single FK is wasted potential compared to an Orc/Aquila fueled by Regulars/Fusiliers.
    Generaly speaking your list has no natural counter to Camo if that is concerning or not depends on matchup though.
    Chewing through a Sierra is something people can struggle with although a well placed Sniper/Infiltrator might make it trivial. Having two certainly helps avoiding a hard counter.
    You're very resilient vs AD and swarms of Warbands since your half of the table should be covered in scary overlapping firelanes for AROs.
    Both lists could have vastly profited form having 10 more points to smooth out the edges. You don't really expect running into the problem of not being able to afford a Warcor in a Joan list or no Palbot in a double Sierra list. For MO that has always been a problem with how clunky their framework interacts with ITS requirements.
    Both lists look very good in term of Specialist coverage, so while not all other pieces in your lists can live up to their full potential you get something in return.

    I'd argue the first list could be significantly improved by dropping the Doc for a selection of Warcor/Palbot/Fugazi/OS->Magister/DA CCW upgrades. With neither a Palbot nor the Orders that guy doesn't add much more than a Specialist Operative with Combi Rifle. So why not have an extra OS promoted to Magister and add a Warcor on top instead. Gives you an extra Wound and Order overall at no Order expenditure.
    Somewhat irrelevant to the argument or maybe painfully accurate instead - that kind of list would have been much better in old MO. Switching over to Hospitalers would have freed up the Doc slot, 3 Fusiliers (including Hacker) as replacement for Joan allow to squeeze in a 6th guy for the link or another tool to your arsenal. Bulleteer, Crusader etc. Old MO is gone and they are not coming back. Problem remains that they weren't exactly top of the line and still outperform new MO for that particular list.

    Second list hasn't much to comment on. Nice gimmick of a FK ML layered with a TO MSR at the steep cost of having your linked B4 gun on your obvious Lt. Looks really good at defending ground or Objectives unless the table or opposing army allows to circumvent dealing with your AROs. Don't think it would fare well against a Boring's style spammy Tohaa list, Ariadna, new Corregidor or even JSA with 50% extra Orders on you. Basically everything with Smoke, CC troops and the Orders to walk past and smash things faster. Your own Vird Cutter list also comes to mind - if you expect a more usual Vird setup relying on Snake Eaters, you will be on the backfoot and could very well lose the game during deployment.
    On the flipside the list seems very well suited to stop a single point of failure list like spammy Vanilla Nomads(KB) or Aleph(Achilles) in its tracks. You don't really care much about how many Orders are trying to fight you after you lock down the main threat. As your FK ML setup is a very specific setup for a specific mission let's leave it here.
    Skillwise we all know you're perfectly capable of roflstomping most players even with a suboptimal list, no question there.
    From personal experience having a better list to carry your ass through your own fuckups has been pretty nice to have as an extra layer of security.
     
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  18. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    EDIT:

    Honestly, theres just not much point arguing. I wont change your opinion, you wont change mine.
    And im tired of the arguing and negativity around here
     
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  19. herod1204

    herod1204 Knight of Santiago

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    It hacks me off. These forums feel like a constant "this is what MO can't do", rather than looking at what it can do.

    Those lists are interesting though @daboarder . Since the recent FAQ ruling on stealth, I really need to look at Teutons again. I suspect in that first one I'd downgrade the trauma doc to a fugazi so I could upgrade the order sergeant to a heavy rocket launcher, and give the father engineer palbots. How would you deal with camo markers or the midfield with that list though? Thats the bit that I can't immediately see.
     
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  20. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    The thing to keep in mind is that the list isnt built as an all comers list. its specifically tailored to the missions, and the way units interact with those missions.

    Massed Camo in the line up didnt really rate as a consideration much too me for the simple reason that, in supremacy I could ensure I outpointed them in any zone my Xenotech was in due to the knights, and in the other missions for list 1, because the mission focused on surviving and keeping your Data Tracker (Hi Joan) alive. in the armoury room missions camo doesnt mean much because you can force it to fight your knights and that imediately gives you a big advantage due to shotguns, nanopulsers, burst 2 and just basic higher BS. Essentially because the camo has to fight you, you can kill it.
     
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