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How have you been using Keisotsu in N4?

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by Ashtaroth, Feb 15, 2021.

  1. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer
    Warcor

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    Apart from being really good cheerleaders, or a dirt cheap speacialist, I find it very hard to justify Keisotsu in N4.

    With the new crit mechanics and the new value that armor has, having a core comprised of 1W, ARM1 and their terrible BS10 doesn't really bode well against the more elite miniatures that are seeing the table.

    The Domaru core is very versatile having a good burst weapon (Spitfire), sleek cost (absolute minimum for a 5-man Domaru core is 100 pts), a specialist option in the FO Domaru and it can branch out to include Kempeitai, Tankos, Yuriko. The versatility and resilience that the Domaru offer, together with their threat power once they get to the middle table far outvalues anything that the Keisotsu link can offer.

    The 9 point cheerleader/Lt is fine, I use them often. The FO and/or Paramedic also have their uses (the FO can go on coordinated orders to sneak in a Targeted state, for example. And the Paramedic is really good to recover the PH14 Domaru).

    In N3 pretty much all my lists started with a core of Keisotsu with Kempei and Yuriko, but that's not the case anymore, in N4.

    What about you guys? Have you found any purpose to the ML Keistotsu, the HMG Keisotsu, the Hacker Keisotsu?
     
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  2. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    They’re a good defensive core and order battery if you are focusing your offense and orders in a Haris, the O-Yoroi, skirmishers/ninjas, bikes, etc.

    And they’re always there for a Hail Mary if the rest of your force gets wiped out.

    I do still like to stick an HMG in there if I can: decent longer-ranged shooting is hard to come by in JSA. Still a backup thing though. Also not terrible in ARO for the points if you really need to cover a firelane or can stack it with something else covering a narrow gap.

    The Kempei MSV2 MMR is also a decent addition if you’re facing a smoke-heavy foe and want to keep close range safe, maybe go on the offensive later.
     
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  3. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    N4 gives you a big problem to solve in terms of how to keep the other guy from killing you.
    Defensive Cores are one of the major answers to that, the Keisotsu Link faces the problem that it's complete and utter trash playing the ARO game. It's exclusively an Order battery providing some Active Turn utility.

    The Tanko ML is JSA's only real linked ARO piece and it's not available outside the Domaru Core. So yeah, Keisotsu Links are very awkward to use right now.
     
    Ashtaroth likes this.
  4. Dragonclaw

    Dragonclaw Well-Known Member

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    In N3 I used the Keisotsu defensive link regularly. Nowadays I prefer the HI Link. So for me the Keisotsu ML is at the moment literally of the table.
    However, one model I would give a try is the Keisotsu Hacker. It has a bad willpower but it is cheap. And there are not many normal hacking devices in JSA. With some remotes with repeater it can be a better ARO piece than the ML ever was (OK, it's still not a big deal but still it's cheap).
    For me the FO / Paramedic are totally viable for objective duties, at least as backups.
     
  5. rac

    rac Active Member

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    I use:
    1 or 2 Keisotsu hacker
    Keisotsu Lt
    Kempei msv2
    Yuriko
    Domaru
    Vs steel phalanx and steel and phalanx and phalanx of steel because pandemic friend plays exclusively SP
     
  6. HotFreshTofu

    HotFreshTofu Well-Known Member

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    I usually have 1-3 as cheerleaders in my lists. The FO profile decent on defense with his flash pulse and combi to stop parachutists . They can go on suppressive fire in coordinated orders to make them an annoying roadblock.

    They seem to end up in nearly every list I play, but unlinked and never the swc ones.
     
  7. Furrball

    Furrball New Member

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    Is there not a conversation to be had about 4 keisotsu and a spitfire domaru? It's very very cheap and will give the domaru full link bonuses. I'm not suggesting its a be all and end all but it will cost very few points for a BS 15, 5 shot +1 damage spitfire. With points saved you should have enough stuff to deal with other situations and allow the link to close to good ranges. Even put a paramedic in the link as a specialist and to pick the domaru up fairly reliably.
     
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  8. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    I use them as nothing but cheap order generating fodder, once I rarely play Ikari or JSA.

    They have no other value for me.
     
  9. Firellon

    Firellon Optimising underdogs

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    Domaru is a pure gunfighter with BS12, has no vis mods and a weapon that's only good up to 24'' - all while costing 39 points, which is actually quite a lot, compared to things like Hospitaller HMG for 37 points or Santiago Spitfire for 43.
    In order to make him somewhat workable, you have to drag around at least 38 more points worth of useless LI that can't hold its own ground and will die rather easily to a random chain rifle warband getting close enough.
    If you'd like to go this way, it would be cheaper and more efficient to just pick up MSV2 SMR Kempeitai, which shoots better due to MSV, synergising with your Yojimbo and Kuroshi, costs 17 points less than Domaru and can not be hacked.

    P.S. Domarus are actually a great unit to fill in HI links as long as they are only carrying Chain Rifles.
     
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  10. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Domaru Spitfire is 33 points, or 37 if you go for the LT+1 variant. Still not too excited about the prospect of that core link when you can take an O-Yoroi for nearly the same points.

    Keisotsu Core + Kempei MSV2 is more interesting, because it adds the all important MSV 2 point man (or woman).

    @Furrball
    If you don't want to waste the Core Link, you can always go with a mixed 3 Domaru pseudo core + an actual Haris. Between Karakuris, Yuriko, Kempeitai, Daiyokai and Tankos, there are several useful combinations to be found in JSA for those links.
     
    #10 Knauf, Mar 5, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
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  11. Firellon

    Firellon Optimising underdogs

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    Sorry, my bad, it's 33 points indeed. Didn't play Domaru Spitfire for a while...
    Spitfire Lt can be only good if you use him with the Daiyokai, though.
    If Domaru'd carry around an HMG, there would be a case for them. With Spitfire, that flimsy Keisotsu link is very likely to die immediately after it goes into the midfield.
     
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  12. IceCream

    IceCream Active Member

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    I like to take a defensive core with two Keisotsu Missile Launchers, two paramedics, and my CoC Kempetai. It's cheap, generates orders, gives my CoC unit something to do that isn't sleeping in a shed in the DZ, and it's a use for the extra SWC I frequently have in JSA. Although I fully expect the missiles to die on the first turn, I'm happy to trade two 14 point units to make my opponent waste a bunch of orders working their way through them. Occasionally they get lucky too, and end up killing something big with their missiles.

    If the missiles get shot but don't die, it can sometimes be useful to have the paramedics to bring them back up, and, on turn three, a team of two Keisotsus specialists and a Kempetai specialist can occasionally make magic happen.
     
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  13. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer
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    The problem is that you are dragging 4 idiots that will die to the slightest of breezes. And Tanko are so dirt cheap that it's really hard not to justify taking them instead of the Keisotus in a core team.

    Well, but the O-Yoroi requires an entire setup that the Domarus don't require as much. O-Yoroi's a good gunfighter, granted (I mean, probably even the best in JSA), but hacking is still an issue. And an O-Yoroi list should have some anti-hacking dedicated pieces for it to work, I think.
    It's 75 points, which is pretty ok, but a Core of Domaru is around 120 points, on a 45 point differential you get 5 orders and 10 wounds.
    Maybe O-Yoroi and a Keisotsu core???

    Yes, this was my go to Core in N3, then just leverage the order battery to slay everyone with Oniwabans, Ryuken-9 and whatnots. But in N4 the Domaru+Tanko core is so beefy, flexible (allowing Kempeitai/Yuriko to join in occasionally, for MSV, Specialists, who Domaru also have one profile, etc), that it's really hard for me to justify the Keisotsu link instead of the Domaru. Specially because we can't go over 15 models, so what are you including in your lists to "use up" the army points that you save with that Core?

    To me the Keisotsu ML, HMG and Hacker ones are a bit obsolete in N4... BS10 ain't going to accomplish anything and I think it's just better value to go up the table with the Kempeitai MSV2 as a point man and then let the samurais run amok and kill everything in CC.
    I'm willing to accept a list that takes a mixed Core of Keisotsu with Kempeitai just so you can have beefier things on the table, but then, what are you really adding that you could not by having a Domaru-Tanko Core?

    I still think the 9pointer, the FO and the Paramedic are plenty playable. Dirt cheap specialists that cheer your Ninjas and Oniwabans. Incredible profiles!
     
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  14. Knauf

    Knauf Transhumanist

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    Yeah, my response was directed specifically at the 4 keisotsu + Domaru Spirtfire example. A mixed Domaru link with Tankos, Kempei etc. is a different beast altogether and something I definitely like, because these guys actually get stuff done, are fairly durable and bring additional utility and special weapons.

    As for the additional support requirement for TAGs, I think the O-Yoroi is really not harder to defend against hacking then your Domaru core link would be. It brings double the BTS and makes spotlight + guided missiles even more unreliable for your opponent. It also doesn't need to traverse half the table in order to shoot things and when it does, it still has Stealth to avoid hacking zones with up to 10 MOV per order.
     
    #14 Knauf, Mar 7, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2021
  15. IceCream

    IceCream Active Member

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    I guess like, anything that I want? :joy: The most traditional offensive link I like to bring is the Mk12 Karakuri, Domaru, & Yuriko Oda haris, but usually I'm bringing a lot of ninjas/oniwaban and/or a lot of bikes. I've also been finding the Shikami to be an all-star when he's well supported and played carefully.

    I feel like if I wanted to take a big beefy 5 HI core link and just walk down the middle and shoot everything, I wouldn't be playing JSA. To me, that's just not where their strengths are and, more importantly, it's just not nearly as much fun as everything else the army has to offer. Plus, JSA is never going to win the hacking war, so by not taking many/any HIs, I can effectively skip it, and leave my opponents spending points on hackers with nothing to target. :smile:
     
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  16. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    I love this haris so much. It's so dang flexible.

    This is one of the ways to play JSA this edition, but topping up on cyber-samurai is actually another really good direction. We may not get TInbots, but Ninja KDHs are really effective when used well to first-strike opposing hackers.

    The hard part of the samurai build is actually holding back until the coast is clear to advance, once the Ninjas or whatever have cleared the path. JSA HI links aren't shooty platforms, they are ways to advance efficiently and then kill stuff in close quarters battle, which is pretty rare for linkteam behavior in Infinity.
     
  17. IceCream

    IceCream Active Member

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    Oh ya, I'm not saying that it isn't good or won't work for other people, but it just does not fit my playstyle.
     
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