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Domaru Dual Wielding

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by gi-redshirt, Mar 24, 2018.

  1. gi-redshirt

    gi-redshirt New Member

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    Not sure if this question has been discussed yet, but if it has please direct me to the proper page.

    So, as we've seen now, Domaru got a buff in CC. They now have the dual wield skill and have Shock CCWs in addition to their E/M CCWs. This is awesome, it makes them a true threat to pretty much every single unit in the game in CC. Everything can become Isolated, 1 wound LI and MI are gonna get insta-killed by Shock, while HI, TAGs, and REMs are getting Immobilized-2. Everything should rightfully be scared of us in CC.

    But what happens when they Crit?

    When Shock weapons crit, the target automatically suffers a wound and if they have a wound characteristic of 1, they automatically go to dead instead of unconscious. But when an E/M CCW crits, the crit is applied to the BTS roll (to Isolate and/or Immobilize) and the target still has to make their ARM roll as normal. Dual Wield says that the user combines the effects of the Special Ammunition of two different CC weapons. So a Domaru in CC would make a single CC attack and apply both Shock and E/M to the attack. So on a crit, what happens? Do we follow the Shock rules for a crit and ignore the E/M rules? Do we follow the E/M rules and ignore the Shock rules? Do we get to choose which one applies each time? Do we apply both?

    I have been unable to find an answer anywhere on the infinity wiki, and was hoping someone here might be able to shed light on a question that will surely come up in the future for all of us.
     
  2. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Both rules apply, because dual wield combines the effects of the ammunition types. If they aren't affected by shock (in which case they die), they get E/M'd. Remember that an E/M CC weapon is Normal + E/M ammo, so if I am not mistaken, Domaru would treat it as a Shock + E/M weapon.
     
  3. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    My room mate will argue that since E/M has a specific clause for what happens in the case of a crit for E/M and CC, you would follow those rules.

    I think he's wrong.

    Why does the E/M weapon override the shock weapon? I don't know. Logically - since we are combining the effects of the two CC weapons, we follow the rules of a crit for both shock (bypassing the usual ARM roll) in addition to following the rules for E/M (bypassing the BTS save). although, something about this doesn't seem right to me. Truthfully, I'm not sure what to do in the event of a crit. I've been looking for something in a FAQ or confirmed answer but have been unable to find one. this is probably because, before new Domaru, only Senior Massacre could really do this.

    Here's to hoping we get something in concrete soon.
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Dual Wield says you combine the two effects; E/M Special Ammunition is clear on what happens:

    Close Combat Weapons that use E/M Special Ammunition cause Normal damage in addition to the E/M effect. Critical hits in CC are always applied to the E/M effect.​

    While I was writing a post arguing that you'd have to choose which weapon is the main weapon based on a post by Helllois, after reviewing E/M Special Ammunition I can only conclude that there is no way to use E/M in melee and get a crit to cause a wound. This is also in line with Helllois' answer since the "additional" damage isn't the damage that can crit, meaning the Normal/Shock is permanently additional
     
  5. fatRat

    fatRat Member

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    While we are on the topic of dual weald here is someting i always wandered since it came up only twice. And both times it resolved it selfbecause of a lucky krit.

    The Knife on the Shikami has Silent in additon to Shock(and -1Ph). Can i combine the Da weapon with it and keep the Silent special ability of the knife? Can i mix and mash weapons as i see fit?
     
  6. Scooper396

    Scooper396 Active Member

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    I assume no, as dual wield is combining the ammo types, rather than the weapons, and the silent is a trait for the knife, not shock.

    *Edit. Actually, I'm probably wrong, what happens if you say, I am attacking with my knife and using dual wield to give it DA from my other weapon.
     
  7. fatRat

    fatRat Member

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    The edit is my assumption toXD but its not 100% clear to me.
     
  8. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Dual wield specifically cites that you must use Close Combat weapons, albeit a little unclear to what it actually means as it doesn't specifically link to this page - http://infinitythewiki.com/en/CC_Weapon

    Now is a knife not a close combat weapon? It has the CC trait, but isn't on the CC Weapon page. If we expand the dual wield skill to allow everything with the CC trait we open this can of worms that is seemly endless. What happens if Neko decides to dual wield his breaker pistol and EXP CCW? One breaker save at DMG 12 and three DMG 14 ARM saves? What happens if he crits?
     
  9. fatRat

    fatRat Member

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    Maybe i should take this to the rules treadXD
     
  10. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Screen Shot 2018-03-25 at 9.11.12 AM.png
    My problem here is that E/M specifically cites you as doing Normal damage in addition to E/M. You are not doing Normal damage though, you're doing Shock. Under shock it specifically states that you bypass any usual ARM roll. So why are we choosing to follow the E/M rules over shock? The only reason given is because that E/M is usually non lethal so there is a clause about CC with it. That's rather weak if you ask me. The only reason shock doesn't have a CC clause is because we know what happens in CC with it.

    This has been discussed so many times and with no CB endorsed answer, unfortunately.
     
  11. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    This was discussed to death when those of us who played CJC asked what happened when Señor Massacre crits with his dual wield on E/M+AP CCW.
    E/M always applies first on crit, you then roll normally with the effect for your other weapon. So crit E/M applies crit on E/M and forces you to take an additional save that applies the Shock trait.
     
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  12. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Is there some type of confirmation on this? an FAQ? an errata? Something that you can cite?
     
  13. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Literally the rules, my dude.

    “Close Combat Weapons that use E/M Special Ammunition cause Normal damage in addition to the E/M effect. Critical hits in CC are always applied to the E/M effect.”

    “Normal” as in Normal ammo, if you have AP CCW you apply AP trait to the Normal damage, which means that in the case of E/M+AP the rules reads like this:
    “Close Combat Weapons that use E/M+AP Special Ammunition cause damage that applies the effects of AP Special Ammunition, the target must make an ARM Roll Roll using half his ARM value. in addition to the E/M effect. Critical hits in CC are always applied to the E/M effect.”

    The rules for E/M CCW acknowledges that the ammo forces you take two saves, one against armour, as if you had a normal CCW, and one against the BTS, which brings up the obvious question; ‘what happens if I crit? Just like the rules tells you to take a wound and take an extra save from DA, just like the rules tells you that crits with plasma happens to your ARM and forces you to take an extra roll on BTS, just like EXP tells you to bypass your ARM and take additional 2 saves, just like Poison tells you that you still roll an extra BTS save even if you crit, the rules for E/M simply tells you which save you bypass and which save the opponent rolls. Because it’s quite consistent in the entire ruleset, there’re simply no instances were a critical roll, on ammo that forces more than one die for every hit, ever apply to the multiple dice involved. If you’re using E/M CCW the rules flat out tells you what you’re forced to apply. Right now you’re arguing that a critical roll bypasses two saves at the same time, which the rules have consistently shown to never, ever, be true.

    And stop using the “FAQ???” Argument. If Corvus Belli had to print an FAQ for every time people had doubts about the rules and refused any logical argument based on the ruleset, they’d be printing a freaking bible each month.
     
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  14. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Keep in mind you are not forced to use the E/M CCW. You can just use the shock CCW if you want your crits to deal an auto-wound.
     
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  15. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    I'd rather auto EM your butt and take my chances on the Shock roll. At least for anything worth sending a Domaru after in CC. Some fool 1W model wants to CC Mister Domaru, well, I might be persuaded to Shock him.
     
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  16. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Oh I agree. I was just pointing this option out to others.
     
  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    And 1W models with NWI (read as: Aleph) get auto-EM'd so I can roll the shock. Because of the critical effects of Shock, it's only 1 damage, no special effects.
     
  18. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Woah, good catch. I knew of such things (Symbiomates and criticals have similar interaction), but I've never thought to apply the same logic here.
     
  19. tox

    tox SorriBarai
    Warcor

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    @Section9 i'm not following you here. What are you implying?
     
  20. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    I think, that the wording on all the critical effects never say that they are equivalent to a model automatically failing his ARM/BTS roll. Implying that a model who automatically suffer 1W from Shock doesn't apply any effect that reads "if the trooper fails the ARM save" because if he rolled nothing then he didn't fail a roll. I think that is better suited for philosoraptor and that the intent of the damage mechanic is clearly that if you are critt'd it is equivalent to failing a roll and it is because you must auto-fail the roll that you instead don't even make the ARM save roll. I don't see how the intent would be that the auto-failure of the roll meaning no roll made meaning don't apply any effect that triggers on failing a roll.
     
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