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Does Total Immunity prevent Protheion lifesteal?

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by paraelix, Mar 30, 2019.

  1. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Yeah I think we’re all good.
     
  2. Dr. Nik

    Dr. Nik Well-Known Member
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    But we still keep ignoring this part "cannot apply Total Immunity... does not use Special Ammunition".
     
  3. Dr. Nik

    Dr. Nik Well-Known Member
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    This part is clearly described in the rules.
     
  4. DukeofEarl

    DukeofEarl Well-Known Member

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    edit:

    that's specifically in regards to Forward Observe, which does not do damage nor have an ARM/BTS save. It is a completely different situation
     
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  5. Dr. Nik

    Dr. Nik Well-Known Member
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    "A trooper with Total Immunity who suffers a successful Attack from the Forward Observer Special Skill cannot apply Total Immunity, as Forward Observer does not use Special Ammunition."

    So does Protheion. And it says nothing about ARM/BTS anywhere.
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You're still reading lines under the headline "Special cases:".

    Arguably, since Forward Observer is a special case, the normal case would be that Total Immunity works as much as can be applied.
     
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  7. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    The same could be said about Combi. "A trooper with Total Immunity who suffers a successful Attack from Combi Rifle BS Attack Skill cannot apply Total Immunity, as Combi Rifle does not use Special Ammunition."
    But no, it does not prevent Combi. It is special and specific to FO.

    I'd say the exception is correct, but for the wrong reason. It should say "A trooper with Total Immunity who suffers a successful Attack from the Forward Observer Special Skill cannot apply Total Immunity, as Forward Observer does not have any ARM/BTS saves roll."

    As it is written, it infers that Attacks that don't use Special Ammo, such as FO, cannot swap it for Normal and cannot use TI at all.
     
  8. Dr. Nik

    Dr. Nik Well-Known Member
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    Any proof of this in the rules?
     
  9. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    concensus from another thread, is that TI users can choose the highest of ARM or BTS for any (special and normal ammo) attack roll (outside some exceptions).

    not sure if the rule was meant to be like that.
     
  10. Dr. Nik

    Dr. Nik Well-Known Member
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    Can you please share a link?
     
  11. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    In https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/updated-total-immunity.27748/
    players are discussing how karakuri are now effectively 6 rather than 3, because they can choose BTS6 rather than ARM3 when making their saves, not only against DA ammo, but against N ammo too.
    I also saw it being discussed in other threads but i don't remember which ones. About other models too.

    edit: also i think it would make sense. If a DA, which is more powerful than a N. Does 2x ARM save, which the Karakuri can block with BTS... then why would the N doing 1 ARM save would have to use the lower ARM value ?
     
    #31 Robock, Apr 16, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    In theory because Karakuris are getting a massive amount of durability without paying for it if that's the case.
     
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  13. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Karakuri did go up in cost as part of the TI update. Only 3pts each, but they did go up in cost.
     
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It wasn't based on their defensive stats, it was a flat increase for TI. Devil Dogs went up in price the same amount.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Karakuri weren't stellar previously. They were barely better off than Shang-Ji, so let's not pretend this is some sort of massive OP unit that got a huge buff.
     
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  16. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    From the top again.
    • When suffering a successful Attack - or being affected by any weapon or rule - that forces any ARM or BTS Rolls, the owner is immune to the special effects of the Special Ammunitions, treating them as Normal Ammunition.
    • In addition, players can choose between making an ARM Roll or BTS Roll, choosing the most advantageous for them.
    • If affected by a weapon or Ammunition with the Non-Lethal Trait (see Infinity N3) that forces an ARM or BTS Roll, owners of Total Immunity won't suffer its effects, so they won't make the ARM or BTS Roll, nor any corresponding Guts Roll.
    • This Special Skill is not applied if the owner suffers a Hacking or Comms Attack.
    First bullet point - Protheion is an attack that forces an ARM or BTS roll, however it does not have special ammo, so it's not treated as Normal.
    Second bullet point - You can choose which save to make. No restrictions based on ammo type on this line.
    Third bullet point - Protheion is not non-lethal, so this line is irrelevant.
    Fourth bullet point - Protheion isn't hacking or comms, either.

    Conclusion: You can save with your choice of ARM or BTS, but the attacker can still drain you of wounds if you fail your save.

    For comparison, let's look at Forward Observer:

    1st - FO doesn't generate a saving throw, so you cannot choose to treat it as Normal ammo
    2nd - Still no save, so no choice of stats
    3rd - It's tagged as non-lethal, but doesn't force a saving throw - you cannot apply this line to ignore its effects
    4th - It's not tagged as comms or hacking

    So you can't use TI against FO in any meaningful way. The "special cases" at the bottom isn't adding new rules, it's just outlining some effects that might not be immediately obvious.
     
  17. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    Also as an aside to @ijw - the dashes aren't present in the first bullet point on the wiki. I thought you had fixed that?
     
  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    They were good previously and now are fucking nuts. Nobody ran them because JSA players wanted their samurai and ninjas.

    Also, it breaks the costing on durability pretty significantly. This isn't a good thing unless it's applied everywhere evenly.
     
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  19. Dr. Nik

    Dr. Nik Well-Known Member
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    Using this logic i can say that you would be able to use your ARM as normal in order to save from Adhesive if it wasn't mention in the special cases. And even if it is mentioned I would say something like "it looks like a bad wording so just ignore it".

    FO doesn't switch on TI not because it doesn't force ARM or BTS but because it isn't a SA in the first place - it's clearly stated.
     
  20. Dr. Nik

    Dr. Nik Well-Known Member
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    I don't see anyone from CB confirming this theory in that topic.
     
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