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Daiyokai

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by Mahtamori, Sep 2, 2019.

  1. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member
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    Daiyokai ain't too bad. Especially for those zone scoring missions where everything is moving up anyway. It's not a bad gunfighter, especially linked for the extra burst, it costs a few points and is relatively durable and when you're in proximity to enemy models for zone scoring anyway, CC is easier to utilise.
    It's not gonna be something you need a lot, but there are missions in ITS where that skillset is useful.
    Biggest problem with the daiyokai is how horrible the karakuri TI upgrade has been. It's shafted internal balance well and truly
     
    #41 csjarrat, Sep 10, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You're grossly overstating the potency of Mimetism. It's good, yes, but it's not that good. Assumptions: Cover, 20" range, hostile solo Dakini MSV in anti-materiel mode, Red Fury profiles for similar points and SWC.

    Don't want to read the spoilers? Spoiled spoilers: Daiyokai in Haris is the best ranged combatant.

    Active Player
    61.85% Mówáng Troops inflicts 1 or more wounds on Dakini Tacbots (Unconscious)
    23.51% Mówáng Troops inflicts 2 or more wounds on Dakini Tacbots (Unconscious 2)
    4.75% Mówáng Troops inflicts 3 or more wounds on Dakini Tacbots (Dead)

    Failures
    29.95% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    8.20% Dakini Tacbots inflicts 1 or more wounds on Mówáng Troops (1 W)
    2.30% Dakini Tacbots inflicts 2 or more wounds on Mówáng Troops (0 W)

    Active Player
    56.60% Daiyōkai Dengekitai inflicts 1 or more wounds on Dakini Tacbots (Unconscious)
    21.67% Daiyōkai Dengekitai inflicts 2 or more wounds on Dakini Tacbots (Unconscious 2)
    4.66% Daiyōkai Dengekitai inflicts 3 or more wounds on Dakini Tacbots (Dead)

    Failures
    29.45% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    13.95% Dakini Tacbots inflicts 1 or more wounds on Daiyōkai Dengekitai (1 W)
    3.52% Dakini Tacbots inflicts 2 or more wounds on Daiyōkai Dengekitai (0 W)

    Active Player
    63.26% Daiyōkai Dengekitai inflicts 1 or more wounds on Dakini Tacbots (Unconscious)
    29.97% Daiyōkai Dengekitai inflicts 2 or more wounds on Dakini Tacbots (Unconscious 2)
    9.23% Daiyōkai Dengekitai inflicts 3 or more wounds on Dakini Tacbots (Dead)

    Failures
    24.74% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    12.00% Dakini Tacbots inflicts 1 or more wounds on Daiyōkai Dengekitai (1 W)
    3.08% Dakini Tacbots inflicts 2 or more wounds on Daiyōkai Dengekitai (0 W)

    Now. If you're looking for a long range option to dominate your opponent, the Daiyokai isn't quite it. But neither is the Mowang. Both are mid-field brawlers and neither is a Kriza Borac. In my opinion, Daiyokai is the better mid-field brawler because it is capable of gaining a significant advantage in the sub-8" range that the Mowang can not and it has Stealth so that it can move past a large number of threats to a HI which is vital for a brawler unit.
    The issues you have with the Daiyokai I find are misdirected. It is not a problem with the Daiyokai but a problem with JSA in general that it lacks snipers and HMG. Is this an interesting problem that provides challenge to get around? I don't know. I just think that the specific design of the Daiyokai is decent. It still has the general issues that all HI has, and as you noted yourself this game is stacked in favour of massed LI/SK, but in the case of a direct comparison between Mowang and Daiyokai - yeah, both are alright and very similar, but so what? It's not like a Mowang will change anything for JSA if they had it instead.
     
  3. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    So you can pay 100 points to perform better than a unit that costs less than 55?
     
  4. maru

    maru Well-Known Member

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    No just minis you mentioned got means to get in to CC - infiltration , superior movment or Superior movment + ODD
    Daiyokai have none of thous to consider an actual use in CC as a strategy instade a random CC that accured when units get randomly to clouse to them selves - like a random KUM riders using impetous then irregular and ending inside smoke like 6 inches from This unit at end of the turn - so ye if he menage to win an aro in his own turn and throw a smoke obscuring los in a list that again strugle with any MSV a CC with Daiyokai is a thing .
    But This Hi is not a unit that will dirtectly aim for CC over shooting
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Conveniently ignoring the numbers for non-Haris, which aren't very far from the Mowang's numbers.

    You have the option to use the Daiyokai to ferry one or two Domaru forwards. There is value in that if you can find it. Now, you're going to have a seriously hard time convincing me that the Daiyokai is actually somehow disadvantaged. I can agree that there are challenges on a sectorial level or a game system level, but as a discreet unit the Daiyokai does what Samurai does best - it cheats the system hard to get CC and more with little drawback and the sectorial is what pays for it by having all heavy units do this at the exclusion of other combat modes.

    Hell, stick an HMG on the thing and you've fixed a hell of a lot more issues you have with JSA than trying to copy the Mowang (which I find to be disappointingly mediocre in practice)
    Active Player
    60.89% Custom Unit inflicts 1 or more wounds on Dakini Tacbots (Unconscious)
    26.66% Custom Unit inflicts 2 or more wounds on Dakini Tacbots (Unconscious 2)
    6.77% Custom Unit inflicts 3 or more wounds on Dakini Tacbots (Dead)

    Failures
    25.16% Neither player succeeds
    Reactive Player
    13.95% Dakini Tacbots inflicts 1 or more wounds on Custom Unit (1 W)
    3.52% Dakini Tacbots inflicts 2 or more wounds on Custom Unit (0 W)
    I agree, Daiyokai will not be aiming at CC as their primary mode of operations, but the Daiyokai also hasn't invested too much into it and together with Heavyweight is gaming the system to bring down costs further resulting in the CC ability being essentially cost free, for all the practical difference Heavyweight does.
     
  6. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I didn't feel it to be particularly noteworthy. I know how the math of the game works, Mimetism is worth roughly 80% of a Burst.

    I agree the HMG would be better, but right now I don't think the Daiyokai is worth fielding, but a Mowang would be viable in JSA.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think it's so damned close it's impossible to tell if there'd be a difference other than eating a bit of extra SWC. It's still lacking half of what makes it viable in IA, which is the second LT level.

    But do try it a few times. I think you'd need a whole bunch of games to start telling the difference. Just don't forget to adjust for the increased SWC cost on the NCA Spitfire profile.
     
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  8. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    + Karakuri
     
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  9. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. JSA has a severe lack of troops to lay down covering fire to allow the samurai to get into CC.
     
  10. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member
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    Karakuri aren't that good, the range limitation and lack of core has meant mine have been consistently outgunned. They tank the return fire happily enough but they're not getting many kills in my games.
     
  11. Mcgreag

    Mcgreag Well-Known Member

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    They have worked best for me when not used so much as an active turn shooter but instead as an order magnet. Park them in an important location and watch the opponent waste all his orders on trying to get rid of them
     
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  12. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, a Karakuri Mk12 in Supression Fire is very resilient turret.
     
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  13. Goonhammer

    Goonhammer Well-Known Member

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    So don't use them as active shooters, use them as the absurdly resilient specialists that they are, and use them to get work done. Bring an engineer with some helper-bots, and they are almost impossible to remove from the field, and they will make it to any objective and interact with it.

    Or turn them into turrets, as others have said. Use their resilience to move a haris of them into position, break the link, put as many as you can on suppression fire, which could be all three, if you take the combi-rifle haris profile, and two Mk. 12's, and make it even harder for your opponent to dislodge them.
     
  14. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member
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    Yeah no doubt, just the bit that was bring replied to was about active turn shooters like the oyoroi
     
  15. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    I havent hard major issues with the Karakuri in the active turn but have only played a couple games with them. I often find myself against plentiful order count Haqq/Ariadna though so the Karakuri brings the goods to grind down cheaper troops just fine.
     
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  16. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member
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    Yeah they're fine, I was replying to the idea that they're great gunners as posted further upthread. We've all agreed here they're ok, but they're "only" bs13 so the other dude's point about the oyoroi seems to still stand
     
  17. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    I mean I guess? I dunno I still see the Karakuri as filling a similar role. It might not be an ideal troop to try and grind down say a cutter in suppressive fire but the Karakuri itself does a decent amount of work bullying other troops in gun fights. Its best suited to bullying light troops but on the active turn it will do just fine against most HI and below. Seems like a gap in the definitions?
     
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  18. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    BS13 is about as good as it gets in JSA, though.

    O-Yoroi is BS14
    Daiyokai is BS13
    Tanko are BS13
    Karakuri are BS13

    Everything else is BS12 or less.
     
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  19. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member
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    Yup, sad face!
    Really hope we get a good lick of paint in n4, the models are so beautiful but the faction is built around a niche mechanic at the cost of the common stuff :-(

    With any luck, either CC becomes more valuable or JSA get brought up to spec with some good gunners
     
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  20. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    In my experience, the Karakuri are better at not losing gunfights than at winning gunfights. The thing is, for them, that's usually enough.
     
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