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Berserk cc vs dodge

Discussion in 'Rules' started by KnightSavant, Jul 16, 2019.

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  1. KnightSavant

    KnightSavant Member

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    So ajax moves into base to base with a fusilier, the fusilier declares dodge as its aro, and then ajax declares cc attack, choosing to activate berserk to get both +6 to the roll, and turn it into normal rolls. What happens if the fusilier succeeds at its dodge?
     
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  2. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    The fusilier will eat the melee impact and, if he survives, will be able to move away per the Dodge rules. In other words, by turning "face to face" (opposed) rolls into "normal" (unopposed) rolls, both suceed or fail against themselves, ignoring the other model's actions... until the Resolution of the order, that is, where the "effects" apply.

    Bottom line, if a trooper with Berseker charges you, fire. It's close to the same "if you dodge, I will shoot my gun, if you shoot I will use my Template" dilemma of the Warbands.
     
  3. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Here you have some extra notes if you feel like digging:
    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/beserk-i-khol-and-other-special-cc-skills.33660/
     
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  4. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Two bullet point are relevant here in the effect section of dodge :
    Allows the user to make a Face to Face Roll to evade one or more simultaneous enemy Attacks.
    => Here, due to berserk effect, the dodge roll is a normal roll not a face to face so you cannot evade the attack. The fusilier take damage (and very very likely die)

    In Reactive Turn only, a successful Dodge allows the user to Move—or use another Short Movement Skill that doesn't require a Roll—up to 2 inches.
    => The fusilier dodge was successfull so you can move 2 inches (and likely die there or just fall unconscious if you are very lucky with your ARM roll)
     
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  5. KnightSavant

    KnightSavant Member

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    Thanks! That's a big help! I've been worrying about it being the opposite, similar to a template attack dodge.
     
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  6. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    He, that was also my reading at first, but the FtF roll point is the key in that interaction.
     
  7. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    The FTF roll Effect of Dodge is not the key. The rules in no way explain how to play this.

    It stands to reason that Berserk's effect to turn that Dodge roll from a FTF to Normal will also change the requirement to evade attacks to be a Normal roll as well. As precedent, Total Immunity allows a BTS roll to be made in place of an ARM roll. We all instinctively change the ammo's requirement to cause damage to be based on that new roll.
    • Breaker Ammo causes damage ONLY after failed BTS rolls. Rolling ARM instead means we take damage after failed ARM rolls.
    • Dodge evades attacks after successful FTF rolls. Making a Normal roll instead means we evade attacks after a successful Normal roll.
    @KnightSavant You are correct to bring this up as this rules interaction is broken. Templates also set another precedent in that Normal rolls can be used to evade auto hit attacks, which I'd argue Berserk is. The community plays it as you've already read, but the rules don't support this.
     
  8. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

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    You can ignore ginrie.

    The poster has a habit of this behaviour. Suffice to say dodge does not protect you from berserk
     
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  9. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Well you can certainly ignore @daboarder. It's not like he added anything new to the discussion. He just has a habit of showing everyone he has no way to actually dispute my argument.
     
  10. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Run, @KnightSavant; run before it's too late :P

    Now seriously, this could had worked in both ways; it would had sense to work as @Ginrei say, but the official stand (and in this case also the RAW) is the other (berserker will hit a dodging enemy model)
     
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  11. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
    Warcor

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    My dispute is that the translator f he game who has in depth conversations with the key creator says you are wrong.

    @ijw
     
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  12. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Someday I hope you understand the difference between RAI and RAW. Every CB employee could come here and say I can't evade a Berserk attack but it still won't change what's actually written in the rules. So rather than pretend the RAW explicitly answer someones question... I'll give them the truth. Which is they weren't mistaken in their confusion about these rules.

    There is no definitive underlying logic that supports the communities interpretation or CB's intent. Players should know this before they try to apply flawed logic to other parts of the game.
     
  13. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    @xagroth has answered, the rest has been debated in the other thread.
     
  14. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I agree players should know if a rule works differently for a ruling, but in this case the RAW support it:
    The roll must be FtF, first bullet point. The templates works in a normal roll because it is stated, however there is no such rule for berserker.
    I do agree berserker should be clearer with how interact with other abilities like MA or Dodge (because let the player figure out that the FtF roll is the key for that interaction is just not a good idea), but this one works RAW.
     
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