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Aragoto vs. Zondnautica

Discussion in 'Japanese Secessionist Army' started by Quickit, Sep 19, 2019.

  1. Quickit

    Quickit Active Member

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    When the Zonds came out, I was reasonably impressed, but also a little surprised. Does anyone else feel like there's a lot more to a Zond for just 5 more points? I'm in a place where I can take advantage of both, as my primary armies are JSA and Tunguska. I rarely take Aragotos anymore (and I do miss them....), as by themselves they're pretty vulnerable to any reasonable ARO. Yojimbo is still popular for a few reasons, with Smoke being one of them, so he is still a solid choice.

    With Zonds, for 5 points more, they all have smoke, as well as a DTW, both of which are excellent on a fast platform like a bike. They can also separate, and force difficult choices in ARO when you can no longer just choose to shoot back, unless you want to get hit with a template weapon.

    So are Aragotos too expensive, or are Zonds too cheap? Too many features on the Zonds? what do you think?
     
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  2. KestrelM1

    KestrelM1 Well-Known Member

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    I think comparing units cross-faction is a sure path to madness.

    Aragoto still come out ahead in a number of respects. Combi + Light Shotgun is a near-perfect BS weapon on a shooty bike, and is retained by the specialist profiles. The shotgun is vastly superior to the chain rifle on attack runs because it lets you leverage your Mimetism, keeps you safe from return fire, and allows you to project damage much further than a DTW. Aragoto are also faster and cheaper while being exactly as good in a firefight.

    So all in all I see them as pretty comparable. In my eyes Aragoto are better outside the spitfire profile, but the Zondnautica has its advantages too. Different units in different factions and all.
     
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  3. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    Aragoto Killer Hacking Device can use Cybermask to become an Impersonator Marker 2, then running full throttle to the enemy DZ to shove them Shotgun shells on Surprise Shots.
    Aragoto Spitfire, deployed on the limit of your deployment zone guarantees that it never shoots on bad ranges. So that's 4 shots on B15 with mimetism.
    Aragoto Hacker and Kuroshi are pretty good to run to wherever they need and push buttons.

    I think Aragoto and the Zonds fill very different roles for their respective armies.
     
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  4. Captain Nevercrit

    Captain Nevercrit Well-Known Member

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    Thats the wisest thing have ever read in this forum.

    Aragoto is a fast aggressive piece in an army of aggressive pieces. It is less of a game breaker as, say, Yojimbo but puts your opponent on the defensive straight away. If JSA is losing ground its losing the game. Aragoto Killer hackers are eye warteringly cheap for what they are capable of. Mid field or in the enemies face with Unit-9 and Ninja/obi running around they can really do some damage,

    A spitfire in JSA at BS12 is like an early christmas for JSA who rarely get high BS outside heavy infantry.

    Its different units in very different factions.
     
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  5. Abydog

    Abydog Well-Known Member

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    unfortunately impersonation is cancelled when you become impetuous so an Aragoto will never be able to become a impersonation marker. not even dismounted

    that s in the cancellation conditions for impersonation
    http://infinitythewiki.com/de/Impersonation-2
    bullet point no 5
     
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  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Mostly it seems like the Zondnautica is paying for its two constituent parts separately, so it gets the increased PH, ARM and BTS for free on the combined bike. I find this to be an odd decision, but oh well. Can't really comment beyond that because to be perfectly honest, Aragoto are a bit beyond my abilities to play well.
     
  7. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    Does it check passively? What I'm asking is if it's possible to do everything in one Active Turn: 1 order to use Cybermask, another run to someone avoiding an ARO and then shoot.

    "becomes" is a very bad word there.
     
  8. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Alright, this is a point that I'm actually really mad now.

    It was previously ruled in this case that you can't Cybermask, because anytime entering a state cancels something, being in that state should also cancel it.

    But then there was a ruling that you can declare Suppressive fire while isolated, even though becoming isolated cancels Suppressive fire.

    So the answer is I don't know because we can't get a consistent ruling on this shit.
     
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  9. Captain Nevercrit

    Captain Nevercrit Well-Known Member

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    Surely using an order cancels the impetuous state for a turn?
     
  10. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    there are differences between the cybermask with impetuous and isolated with supressive fire.

    becoming impetuous cancels imp-2 and avoid further use of the impersonator hability while is in that state (is not stated cybermask though). Meanwhile, in the supressive state, is the "change of state" the trigger for cancellation, not the state
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The difference is that entering Impetuous means the model also loses the ability to use the Impersonation skill, which when taken together with the FAQ on NFB you can see that Cybermask actively allows use of the Impersonation skill. Yes, it is far from as straightforward as it should be, but that's the difference between Suppression and Impersonation cancellation.
    Impetuous state can not be cancelled, it can only be suppressed by being in a Fireteam.
     
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  12. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    Y'all just afraid that my awesome bikers friendship turns out to be fake, because you realize you're not cool enough to be friends of the Aragoto...
     
  13. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    They do take a HELL of a lot of practice, that's for sure!
     
  14. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Interesting question actually. I just found out recently that contrary to what I thought was the formal ruling TO models can use the regular camo state and still benefit from their -6 to hit despite NFB. Because the state and the skill are separate. My understand is that the ruling that you couldn't TO and Camo state at the same time was a general community consensus not the actually CB Ruling. Perhaps this is another similar situation?
     
  15. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
    Warcor

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    One of the issues is simply the state of the game and the meta.

    A BS12 unit, no link bonuses and (for simplicity sake) no negative mods isn't a huge threat right now. If your opponent lines up for a shotgun blast, or you can get to an undefended backline, it gets better... But it still isn't huge. The Zondnautica gets around this by threatening you with two mechanics at once: BS attack and Direct Template. It can even pull some Electric Pulse tricks, and brings its own self-contained way of getting close through smoke.

    The Aragoto, sadly, doesn't possess that extra mechanic. It makes it harder to get into an opportune position where it can do damage, not just maneuvering around the table, but also in terms of what it can realistically threaten.
     
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  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I definitely think it deserves CB's attention, but the logic goes like this:
    A. Cybermask enters the state using Impersonation
    B. Cybermask's NFB actively prevents others NFB while you remain in state
    C. Impetuous prevents Impersonation from being used
    A <and> B <therefore> D (Cybermask must be continually used to run the state)
    C <and> D <therefore> Impetuous prevents Cybermask

    It is not perfect logic, it does have some holes that makes it possible to argue against it, but it is the strongest line of reasoning so unless your local rules guru favours impersonating Aragoto and is very headstrong, you should eventually arrive at the conclusion that bikers just can't impersonate anyone.
     
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  17. Ashtaroth

    Ashtaroth Aragoto GP Organizer

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    @Mahtamori boo... I like your answer, but I don't like what it says.
     
  18. Mcgreag

    Mcgreag Well-Known Member

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    Except it doesn't actually say anywhere that being Impetuous stop Impersonation.
    It says both on the Impersonation page and the Impetuous page that going from non Impetuous to Impetuous through Frenzy or similar breaks Impersonation but nothing else.

    Now it definitely possible that it is intended to stop Impersonation but that not what the rule says.
     
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  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Impersonation-2

    The impersonator becomes Impetuous (due to the Frenzy Characteristic or any other effect) or enters Retreat! state. In either case, the trooper loses his ability to use the Impersonation Special Skill. The trooper recovers his ability to use the Special Skill when the Retreat! situation is canceled. However, the trooper does not revert to the Impersonation-2 state. To regain an Impersonation state, the trooper must follow the Activation rules of Impersonation-1 state.
     
  20. Mcgreag

    Mcgreag Well-Known Member

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    Yes but both cases it's listed under Frenzy, as not an effect of Impetuous itself but only one of going from non Impetuous to Impetuous.