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Alphabet Soup: IA WC REM ARO B + SW + FT3BB

Discussion in 'Rules' started by wes-o-matic, Feb 13, 2020.

  1. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic Active Member

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    I’m 99% sure I have this right, buuuut:

    During the reactive turn, a Son Bae in a Zuyong Core in IA has B1 (baseline ARO Burst) +1 for the 3 man link bonus, for a total of B2.

    If I throw Enhanced Reaction supportware on there, RAW says that it grants the Son Bae B2, not “+1 Burst.” So there’s a line of reasoning that says the Son Bae gets B3 in ARO, B2 for supportware and +1B for FT.

    On one hand, the FT bonus text says that the FT bonus +1B doesn’t stack with bonuses or MODs from supportware. On the other, the supportware doesn’t say it grants a bonus, just that the REM gets B2 in ARO.

    I think that the intent of the rules was that they shouldn’t stack, the Son Bae gets just B2. My reasoning is that the FT rule explicitly says supportware bonuses/MODs don’t stack, and the only supportware that modifies B in ARO does it by assigning B2, so it’s a wording oversight and the B2 from supportware is to be treated as a bonus/MOD.

    I just don’t know how to prove that, and some forum searches aren’t turning up anything helpful. Can someone clear this up for me?
     
  2. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    While it has been argued that setting burst to 2 isn't a MOD or bonus (what if it's a TR bot, they say...) I believe the part I quoted is correct, and I'm fairly sure the vast majority of the player base sees it this way as well.

    If not, my Shas and Onyx are going to be bringing a hell of a lot more B3 missile launchers in my games.
     
  3. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic Active Member

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    I mean, same. If B2 from supportware really stacks with the 3 man Fireteam bonus, a Son Bae potentially becomes an auto-include in IA if you're running a Core, and it also pretty much immediately makes the Neurocinetic Yan Huo obsolete.
     
  4. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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  5. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic Active Member

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    Definitely! Except? I read that and referenced it in my original post. The issue I'm running into is an interpretation I hadn't expected, which is basically as follows....

    Enhanced Reaction rule from http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Enhanced_Reaction

    (Emphasis mine.) Note that it doesn't say "grants the target REM a +1 Burst MOD" or "grants the target REM +1B" or anything else about a bonus or MOD. And the FT rule says "...not stackable with other bonuses or Burst MODs..."

    That's the "gotcha" question I'm asking about. Is "grants the target REM a Burst value of 2" a bonus and/or MOD? If so, how do we know, since pretty much every other bonus/MOD in the game has a clear indicator like a + or - symbol, and/or specifies being a MOD (as far as I can tell, but I haven't done an exhaustive re-review of all the rulebooks...yet)?

    I don't think you're wrong, I'm just trying to figure out how to debunk the initial proposition convincingly. Unfortunately, it seems like the real answer is "you get a final value of B2 because they don't stack, but the text should have already been errata'd to read "Enhanced Reaction grants the target REM a Burst MOD of +1 in ARO, which does not stack with any other effects that increase Burst in ARO." and the Fireteam rule should say something similar like "any other effects that increase Burst in ARO."
     
  6. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    So you are claiming that a rule that modify a value is not to be treated as a bonus? Because the reason is totally there...
    I know you are playing the devil's advocate to understand the reasoning, no rudeness intended
     
  7. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    The point he is making is that "bonus" is not defined in the rules and actually redirects to the MOD page on the wiki, where MOD is definitely defined, but not in a way that suggests "grants the REM a burst value of 2 in ARO" is one. If someone wants to say they get a B3 T-Drone in a Shas 5-manalien core with ER up, it's hard to point to clear rules saying they are wrong.

    Now, you could argue semantics, but the problem in the rules stands. The definition of a MOD needs to be more broad in the rules than it currently is (to include any modification to an attributes value, whether it's modifying a value up or down from a base value, or simply setting to some value).

    I do think this problem is more one in theory than in practice... I don't see anyone actually arguing this way IRL, though a couple people have tried on the forums.
     
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  8. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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  9. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Modifiers
    In most cases, the circumstances of an action apply Modifiers (MODs) to the relevant Attribute before a roll is made. MODs, by increasing or decreasing the numeric value of an Attribute, denote the difficulty of the Skill at hand. A positive MOD applies when the Skill performed is easier than usual, and a negative MOD represents that the Skill is harder than usual.

    The most commonly used MODs are:
    • Range: can modify the BS and WIP Attributes.
    • Cover: can modify the BS and ARM Attributes.
    • Skills and Equipment: can modify several different Attributes.
    - - - - -

    Overclock is a Skill that modify an Attribute, it's a MOD as defined above.

    - - - - -

    Fireteam bonuses explicitely don't stack with other Burst MODs in the reactive turn.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Fireteam_Bonuses
    In the Reactive Turn, this +1 Burst bonus is not stackable with other bonuses or Burst MODs provided by other rules, Special Skills, Equipment, or Hacking Programs, except for those who specifically state otherwise.

    - - - - -

    Even if you did not consider Overclock to be a bonus (lol), it still wouldn't stack with Fireteam Burst Bonus because it fits the description of a MOD.
     
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  10. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    As I've mentioned several times, you don't have to convince me. I, personally, read it that way as well. I also remember a certain someone here on the forums vehemently arguing that because it didn't apply a + or - directly, it wasn't a MOD. IIRC the basis of their argument was the 3rd sentence of that opening paragraph you quoted.
     
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  11. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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  12. wes-o-matic

    wes-o-matic Active Member

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    Thanks! That confirms that this isn’t a new issue, (not shocking) and between IJW and psychoticstorm’s comments it looks like it’s as settled as it’s going to get. Hopefully that suffices.

    I spent half an hour on various search strings and somehow that thread didn’t come up in anything like a top-three-pages position in my results, or I’d have avoided posting in the first place. That thread got salty fast.