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Overclock & Fireteams

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Cannon Fodder, Dec 16, 2019.

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  1. Cannon Fodder

    Cannon Fodder Well-Known Member

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    If a remote with a repeater is in a fireteam, would the overclock support-ware give him 3B in ARO?
     
  2. konuhageruke

    konuhageruke Well-Known Member
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    chromedog, Dragonstriker and Xeurian like this.
  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    If you don't see an increase from one to two as a bonus, then also consider that whenever you use Overclock with that Remote it is going to have a Burst value of 2 and nothing but 2. Got a Fireteam bonus on top of that? Great, your burst is 2. Got Total Reaction? Burst is 2.
     
  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    If there's a Saturation Zone? Burst is - wait...
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Saturation zones don't modify the shooter's weapon's burst, it modifies the burst of the individual BS Attack on a target - you're still allocating 2 burst, it gets reduced to 1 when rolling.
     
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  7. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    This Thread again!

    Before we go in circle for multiple pages claiming that burst mods are never defined in the rules and trying to argue over semantics, I'll just post this.


    Burst Modifiers are defined as follow.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/BS_Attack_Declaration
    Burst Modifiers

    Certain situations can alter the usual B value of a weapon. Players apply Burst Modifiers when declaring the BS Attack.

    Overclock fits the description of a "Certain situations can alter the usual B value of a weapon."

    In fireteams, we also see

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Fireteam_Bonuses
    In the Reactive Turn, this +1 Burst bonus is not stackable with other bonuses or Burst MODs provided by other rules, Special Skills, Equipment, or Hacking Programs, except for those who specifically state otherwise.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Enhanced_Reaction
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Overclock

    It even specifies that Hacking Programs are an incompatible source of modifiers with fireteam bonuses.

    The only burst bonus you can gain from Hacking Programs are Enhanced Reaction and Overclock, both of which are worded the same. It is clear that the intent of "Hacking Programs" that are refered in that sentence refers to these 2 programs.
     
  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Except that with Total Reaction, it will actually *lower* the Burst of the weapon. So how can it be a bonus?
     
  9. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    The fireteam burst is a bonus...

    Enhanced reaction is a modifiers...

    Fireteam burst bonus "is not stackable with other bonuses or Burst MODs".

    Note that the sentence doesn't end after the word "bonuses" and includes the words "Burst MODs", which I defined earlier in the post.
     
  10. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    Just can’t help yourself, can you?
     
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  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    You've never actually read the rules, have you?
     
  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Overclock is not a MOD; it just sets it to 2, which doesn't fall under the definition given to MODs in the rules.
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for pointing this out, it has lead to an actual rule that means we can end the discussion conclusively. You mean this page: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Modifiers

    Where we find this red box:

    IMPORTANT!
    Whenever a rule mentions the value of an Attribute, consider it to mean the final value, obtained after applying all MODs.
     
  14. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    That's a misreading of what that passage means. It just means that when you make a roll on your PH, you roll on your PH after applying all relevant MODs.
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Which in itself makes no sense when you consider that a Knife has the Damage value of "PH-1", meaning it would be PH after all MODs and then another MOD that should've already been applied.

    In either case, the lack of arithmetic priority rules means that unless you accept that "modifier" can sometimes mean the dictionary definition of "modifier", then putting Overclock on a Dakini Fireteam simply breaks the game by your definition of this not being a modifier.
     
  16. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    - - - - -

    I guess I can just requote myself...

    - - - - -

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/BS_Attack_Declaration
    Burst Modifiers
    Certain situations can alter the usual B value of a weapon. Players apply Burst Modifiers when declaring the BS Attack.

    Overclock fits the description of a "Certain situations can alter the usual B value of a weapon."
     
  17. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Is also fits the description given here aswell...

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Modifiers
    In most cases, the circumstances of an action apply Modifiers (MODs) to the relevant Attribute before a roll is made. MODs, by increasing or decreasing the numeric value of an Attribute, denote the difficulty of the Skill at hand. A positive MOD applies when the Skill performed is easier than usual, and a negative MOD represents that the Skill is harder than usual.

    The most commonly used MODs are:
    • Range: can modify the BS and WIP Attributes.
    • Cover: can modify the BS and ARM Attributes.
    • Skills and Equipment: can modify several different Attributes.
    - - - - -

    I don't think anybody can argue that Overclock falls under the description of a MODs.

    And Fireteam bonuses explicitely don't stack with other Burst MODs in the reactive turn.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Fireteam_Bonuses
    In the Reactive Turn, this +1 Burst bonus is not stackable with other bonuses or Burst MODs provided by other rules, Special Skills, Equipment, or Hacking Programs, except for those who specifically state otherwise.
     
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  18. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    As per (several) previous discussions, 'bonus' is not an infinity game term, which is why, in the text being quoted, it's not capitalised.
    Overclock and Enhanced Reaction are bonuses, according to the standard English usage of 'bonus'.
     
  19. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    I'm not even sure why that even matters... Even if you did not consider overclock to be a bonus, it still wouldn't stack with Fireteam Burst Bonus.

    The Fireteam rules states that they don't stack with other bonuses... OR Burst MODs... And Enhanced Reaction is clearly a Burst MODs. (As I demonstrated with the rule entry on what a MODs is)

    The rule is so clear that even if someone would argue that it is not a "bonus", but a "malus", the rule would still work and the mods would not stack.
     
    #19 Diphoration, Dec 17, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2019
  20. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    Yes, I have. I’ll leave it at that, rather than be insulting.
     
    A Mão Esquerda likes this.
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