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A MOment of bitterness

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Judge Dredd, Mar 13, 2019.

  1. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    So you invest 50 for unlinked nimbus and then other +-50 pts for a decent shooter ?
     
  2. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

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    Probably you are the only person ever that used Nimbus grenades. I never saw anyone use nimbus ammo since created
     
  3. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Never faced Tohaa ?;P
     
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  4. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    If people aren't using Nimbus they're missing out.

    When I was playing Steel Phalanx I used to deal with link teams very often by chucking down a Nimbus from a Dactyl and then lighting someone up with a Spitfire or whatever, alright I'm now B4 (in a link) but they're only B1, and B4 vs B1 is way better than B5 vs B2, especially if they have a hard hitting ARO or visual mods or whatever. And Druze have a Nimbus and E/M LGL which is awesome. I faced that profile recently and it was really effective, thinking about using it more myself in QK especially. Like, if you face a Kamau MSR? Throw down a Nimbus on my linked Djanbazan HMG, B4 on 12s vs B1 on 13s, I'll take that happily. Sure it doesn't always come up, but when it does? Super useful. That the profile is very multi-capable is nice though.

    A Father Knight FO with Nimbus could provide that tactical role, be a close assault specialist, and tank hits very effectively. But seriously I like Nimbus, I think it's really good and under-used by most factions, probably because it's not that readily available.
     
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  5. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

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    Maybe once a year, sometimes less
     
  6. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Well, the thing about them is that they have cheap Nimbus+ sources that happen to move together with heavy flamer guys.
     
  7. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    So yes, Nimbus seems to be quite usefull outside of MO.
     
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  8. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Dude... really?

    Your faction literally just got the most insane Nimbus combo between Patsy's Nimbus+ and a camo Sensor model that combines triangulated fire with surprise shot (and an assault pistol for shits and giggles).

    -3 cover, -6 Poor Vis, -3 Camo, -3 Surprise shot. Even in good range bands opponent shoots back at -12 MODs unless they're SSL2.

    You can freely delete TR bots with this.
    They get -12 to dodging as well. They can't even dodge. It can't shoot back, it just has to eat bullets with no reaction it can take to force a F2F roll.
     
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  9. Lieutenant

    Lieutenant PanOceanic Dabbler

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    Genius.
     
  10. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
    Warcor

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    great that's three order for something that can be done in one order with a croc
    I'm not even mentioning the fact that you have to have patsy near the zulu ... stupid combo nimbus 'nads are useless
    except maybe to make a last suicide run for one objective last turn, but I'm pretty sure even for this a move + dodge is a better move
     
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  11. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

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    My factions are CHA, MO and Bakunin. Where are my Nimbus Grenades?
     
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  12. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
    Warcor

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    Nimbus Plus can be useful, if situational.

    It's harder to make the same argument for straight Nimbus, as the lower penalty further narrows the range of applicable situations.
     
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  13. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Considering both Triangulated Fire (Entire Order) and Surprise Shot (Short Skill) are separately declared skills, are you sure you can actually combine them?
     
  14. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    This is why father knights losing basic nimbus isn't seen as a big nerf because it wasn't that useful to begin with.
     
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  15. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Don't forget the -1B. Combirifle TF through Nimbus is 2 dice on 10s. Unimpressive odds to take out a TR Bot. Assuming you didn't have to move in position for the Nimbus and kill the TR Bot despite low odds on the first Order that's still fairly inefficient. Straight up shooting it with a TAG, ZC, Kamau or EB is well worth the risk in exchange for much better efficiency. It's nice to have if you need the safety, but more of a desperate measure than an actual plan.
    Agreed.
    Especially since we don't get any of the things that make Nimbus good elsewhere for Varuna, i.e. linked B2 DTWs or CC.
     
    #295 Teslarod, Mar 25, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
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  16. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    In your parent faction. Try playing without fireteam crutches once in a while for some perspective.

    Ask a stupid question get a stupid answer.



    Yes. Surprise shot is written like crap and requires heavy RAI applied or it doesn't function. https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/surprise-shot-triangulated-fire.25564/

    I believe @inane.imp and @daboarder have done this one to death before.


    Zulu Cobras have FD1 and given that you're moving them up the table anyway to zone with Jammers as part of normal game play orders spent advancing into 24" aren't really that inefficient when you get to start +4" up anyway.

    24" being important because the little bastards have Assault Pistols. 62% to down a TR bot via TF with an Assault Pistol and I highly suspect the sensor is the main reason they're randomly rocking assault pistols too design wise.

    Compare that to a fully linked Kamau. Kamau have an extra 9% to succeed at 71% but trade that for an increase of 19% to die in return, as opposed to the Zulu Cobra taking a crack at 0% risk. Jumping from 0 to almost 1/5 chance of losing your main lockdown ARO isn't a small risk.



    Patsy doesn't need to be that close to a Zulu. Haris link alone throws 16" with better than 3/4 odds on 11s at burst 2. Even unlinked Patsy has 55% odds to land her Nimbus at 16" thanks to HI PH.



    The snarky sardonic part of me says that's only true if you never explore attacking stuff without needing a core link bonus or TO Camo to back you up.

    On a more serious note the application of Nimbus is interesting when you take the time to look at it and realise that outside of Triangulated Fire the more important aspect isn't the -3 Low Vis MOD it's the Saturation Burst MOD.

    Take one of the more likely scenarios to apply Nimbus with a Hsien Haris which carries it.

    Without Nimbus vs a linked Kamau it's 47-27% to the Hsien.

    Introduce Nimbus first and it's 55-18% to the Hsien.

    It's a 17% swing overall. It's not insignificant. Nimbus has the greatest effect when used to crack link teams because of the burst modifier being much harsher on the defending link team removing 50% of their dice vs 20% of the attacker's dice.

    Even an unlinked Hsien firing through Nimbus the odds change from 42-31% to 47-21%, a 15% swing. The major point is the difference in ratio 25% vs 50% loss the dice are causing.

    Now it gets even more interesting if we take a model that doesn't care about the Nimbus Zone burst reductions and fire through it.

    Take the long maligned Pheasant Rank MSR with Marksmanship Level X. Yes, Yu Jing players don't hate that one anymore he's actually got some game now to go with that kickass model.

    Pheasant vs Kamau is 49-35% when using MMLX.

    Add Nimbus to the mix and we have a drastic change at 60-22%, a 24% swing.

    Now it's interesting to note if we use Nimbus+ instead of regular Nimbus the numbers are worse, 55-20% which is only a 21% swing. Still good but yet worse than using the basic Nimbus Grenade.

    It's all about that burst change.

    Using Nimbus is about applying MOD changes to two parties in disproportionate ways. When you use Nimbus with Triangulated Fire you're attempting to cause a skew between the BS MODs for greatest effect, so Nimbus+ with Patsy is stronger. When you're using a low Burst but high BS effect like MMLX you prefer regular Nimbus because Nimbus+ would actually fuck over a model like the Pheasant while not improving the Burst skew any further.
     
    #296 Triumph, Mar 25, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  17. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

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    I dont like Pano. So i dont play vanilla. The same with Ariadna and Nomads. Dont assume that i like and play Pano because i play MO. I dont like any vanilla army, only certain sectorials.

    I dont choose my armies by their OP-ness, only by fluff
     
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  18. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Do you also don blinkers and pretend that nothing exists outside of your army? When powerful combos turn up it benefits you to be paying attention so you see them coming. Nimbus+ exists for Pan-O regardless of whether or not you want to use it. Being aware of it, and how it works is to your benefit.
     
  19. fari

    fari CRISTASOL, EL LIQUIDO DE LOS DIOSES

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    Ok, but that dont change what i said earlier. I never saw a single person using Nimbus ammo since it was created.
     
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  20. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    .... you're still looking at 3 Orders minimum
    Throw Nimbus -> succeed or not
    Walk ZC into LOF -> get Discovered or not
    Declare Surprise Shot TF Entire Order

    If any of those 3 steps fail you're down an additional Order, if the last one fails, you don't have Surprise Shot and the Bot will not be on 0s.
    If you get Discovered while setting up, the Bot will not be on 0s.
    If the Bot has Assisted Fire he won't be on 0s.
    It's more likely than not to fail one of these 60-70% rolls, which puts the whole thing closer to 4 Orders or 3 Orders for a coinflip.

    The Assault Pistol +FD1 have the problem that you'll most likely end up in positive HMG Rangebands since you need the Nimbus on you.
    In a pinch I happily shoot TR Bots with TO/ODD Combis (i.e Hexa KHD or Machaon) from outside 32", or when group 2 has some left over Orders and I might as well try saving group 1 the trouble. But it's still just an option to be aware of, nothing more.
    The security aspect is important I'd probably spend an Order to maneuver a Swiss outside of 32" to not get crit early in the game. 4 Orders for a realistic takedown even with perfect conditions is a bit much to ask for my taste.


    For Varuna the Kamau Sniper will always be there, does it better, no setup required 70% success with Shock Immunity and a Palbot ready to spend those extra 3 Orders on if things go south.
    Even better, with Nimbus and outranging the TR Bot he has over 67% to punk that TR Bot and can easily repeat from there as often as it takes.
     
    #300 Teslarod, Mar 25, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019