https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/coordinated-surprise-attack.41989/#post-451216 Basically the same question with the link. Let's say Ayyar (Surprise attack (-6)) and Shujae(Surprise attack (-3)) are moving with coordinated order and BS attack against fusilier. What is the surprose attack mod in the following AROs? 1. Fusilier BS attack against Ayyar 2. Fusilier BS attack against Shujae 3. Fusilier dodges 4. Fusilier resets Also, for P75 (Modifiers Explained), there is no skill called "Surprise Shot" in N5.
You settle them individually. One roll by the Fusilier that's -6 to the dodge vs. Ayyar and -3 bs Shujae. So needs 4 or 7. 4 or less could potentially beat both. 7 could beat the Shujae but not the Ayyar.
Both the Surprise Attack rules and the rules in the link you posted are copied word for word into the N5 rules PDF, with the one exception that Surprise Attack gained a bullet point about not being able to combine Surprise Attack MODs that target specific attributes with other Surprise Attack MODs. Therefore, I'd argue that the conclusion in that old N4 thread you linked about the issue remains the same: the Ayyar's Surprise Attack (-6) applies to anything the Fusilier declares in ARO, regardless of who the Fusilier targets. Now here's the iffy part: the FAQ entry from N4 that prevented you from stacking Suprise Attack MODs doesn't exist anywhere in the N5 rules. The bullet point in Suprise Attack that says you can't stack Surprise Attack MODs that target an attribute with other Surprise Attack MODs is very specifically only about Surprise Attack MODs that target an attribute. Surprise Attack MODs might now stack.
@Space Ranger @QuantronicWombat So you have different interpretation of rules, so give me which interpretation is right after you try to convince each other. I don't disagree there. I want to say "This MOD is not cumulative with other MODs imposed by Surprise Attack" is supposed to prevent stacking of surprise attack MODs, which is in line with the N4 FAQ entry. However, it's under the second bullet point, which defines the Surprise Attack with specific Attribute, it can be only applied to those with attributes. They really need to clarify this rule.
If so, please give me the answers you think. The FAQ you brought still does not clarify "which surprise attack mod" they apply, or they still suffer surprise attack mod if they do ARO with normal roll. Do you agree with Space Ranger or QuantronicWombat? Or, do you have a different answer?
Does the image I added not load for you? Q: If multiple Troopers use Surprise Attack against the same target, for example via a Coordinated Order, or a Controller and Peripheral, do the Surprise Attack MODs stack with each other? A: No. Each Trooper's Surprise Attack MOD will be applied separately. For example if a Trooper is the target of two attackers using Surprise Attack, they will only suffer one Surprise Attack MOD if they Dodge, or Attack one of the Active Troopers. https://infinitythewiki.com/Surprise_Attack
I read that FAQ many times and I'm saying that FAQ is still not answering clearly enough. What FAQ doesn't say is it doesn't state "which one mod" they suffer. FAQ only says their surprise attack MOD applies seperately. Let's see a more easier example. Ghulam and Shujae bs attacks Fusilier. Shujae reveals from camo and gets surprise attack. Fusilier use BS attack as an ARO against Ghulam. Does fusilier get -3 mod from surprise attack of Shujae? It can be either 1. Surprise attack MOD is applied seperately. Ghulam doesn't have surprise attack, so that FtF between Ghulam and Fusilier doesn't apply surprise attack MOD. 2. Surprise attack MOD is applied seperately. So Shujae's surprise attack MOD is applied to "any roll" Fusilier makes, so the FtF between Ghulam and Fusilier applies surprise attack MOD. Which one do you think is right? The link of the original post is after that FAQ Spoiler: The link's answer and many in that thread agreed that surprise attack should be applied in this case .
Personally I think it would have been better to have excluded Surprise attack from the top bullet point in this picture so the the lower one applied to them so that the mods only worked if it was a face to face roll but clearly CB want it to be an exception.
As Surprise Attack just generically applies to the target, when you have multiple conflicting modifiers that can't stack you still get to dictate which one is in effect as far as I know. So to my understanding it's Surprise Attack -6 applied to all rolls because the target is taking the -6 mod for the remainder of the order. So lets talk about something then that would be in that bottom bullet point. BS Attack (-3). The sort of main question here is then is the coordinated order with reaction dodge considered to be a singular large F2F interaction or is it multiple separate ones? The reason this gets weird is because you end up with what feels to me to be a strange interaction no matter how you slice it. Dodge says a successful F2F roll allows for dodge movement. And Coordinated Order pretty clearly states the Dodge would be F2F against all attackers. So if say you have a PH13 with a roll of 12 and 1 attacker has BS Attack (-3) and the others do not, a combined F2F pool would mean the dodge only succeeds on a 10 against everyone. This also then opens up the question to if you have multiple models with BS Attack (-3) do they stack? On a first pass I wasn't able to directly locate a section on MOD stacking but I could have just missed it in fairness If it doesn't work that way and the dodge roll mentioned above would fail against the holder of the skill but pass against everyone else, then does the dodge user technically have a successful F2F roll against atleast one of those attacking models? Spelling this out because I honestly don't think this is particularly cleanly defined but we are talking about rules from 3-4 different sections of the book interacting with each other. Feel free to tell me if I'm out to lunch or missed this in parts of the rules update. But this very discussion just came up tonight in our local discord lol.
Surprise attack is the only skill that affects all rolls including non-f2f rolls. This interaction is very important when you try to trigger your own mines during your active turn. This can also mean that there are one dice roll can have different target numbers depending on the opposition. Example1: Fusilier (PH10) is in mine trigger area, declares dodge and gets shot by another Ghulam (B11 after mods). Fusilier makes a single dodge roll but applies the mine mod only for the mine normal roll because mine isn't a surprise attack. Let's say that the Fusilier rolled 8 for the dodge and Ghulam rolled 2, 10 an 15 for BS attack. --> Fusilier rolls save for the mine (because the target number was 7 for the mine and he rolled 8) and one combi rifle (because 10 is higher than 8 but 8 is also a passed dodge roll which negates the 2). Example2: Fusilier is in mine trigger area, declares dodge and is coordinated attacked by Ghulam (B11 after mods), Ayyar (BS4 after mods, surprise attack -6), Farzan (BS12 after mods, surprise attack -3). Fusilier makes a single dodge roll and applies -6 generic mod from Ayyar because of surprise attack* and -3 mod to mine dodge normal roll. Let's say that the Fusilier rolled 1 for the dodge and Ghulam rolled 2, Ayyar rolled 10 and Farxan rolled 12 for BS attacks. --> The fusilier crits against mine (10-6 (from Ayyar surprise attack) -3 (mine mod) =1), but sadly the target number for the dodge is 4 (10-6) against other attacks so it doesn't cancel Ghulam and Farzan attacks. Ghulam scores one hit and Farzan scores a critical hit. Moral of the story? Ayyar is best. Everyone should be like Ayyar. More factions need Ayyar-like profiles. * While it's not 100% spelled out in N5 because all N4 faqs got nuke after N5 was released, IMHO the RAI in N5 is the same that it was(?) in N4, where surprise attacks didn't stack with other surprise attacks but non-surprise attacks can "benefit" (clearly not stacking) from surprise attacks during coordinated orders. You should definitely consult your local HB player how this works because his entire faction depens on Ayyar solving all problems.
I thought you just rolled one Dodge with different SV against different attacks? So, if you have PH10, you get SV7 vs the mine, SV10 vs a normal shot without mods, and SV4 against the surprise-attacking Ayyar. I don't think it is super clear, but I'd play it that you need to succeed all the rolls to be allowed to move after the dodge (on a "successful dodge roll") (eg, roll 3, and the normal shot and the Ayyar both rolling 1...)
Because Surprise Attack applies to the target for any ARO they do, my understanding of it is it would make said Fusilier SV4 against everybody. But the mine example is a good one to bring up for how to handle coordinated orders.
Except surprise shot affects other rolls, because it's the one skill that does that. -> SV1 vs mine -> SV4 against BS attacks In order to move with dodge, the Fusilier needs to win all f2f rolls and succeed on dodge which is very difficult. It's also worth mentioning that because there are multiple target numbers for a single roll, the Fusilier can't crit against against all threats.
