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Zhanshi should have 19 CC...

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by Mahtamori, Sep 26, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    MTG cards are a lot more one-dimensional, though. You don't get 15 of them and that's it. Each card typically only does one thing and very few are end conditions as well as the way you pay for stuff is vastly different as well. It is not really possible to look at a single Magic card and compare that to the complexity that is a unit in Infinity, not even a planeswalker is as complex as a Fusilier Paramedic.
    Now, it's fine if a unit or a faction has poorer access to a certain set of abilities. Doctor only on crappy units that can't link where another faction get them scattered all over the place high and low is fine, there is a lot of power in having a bunch of choices for a certain ability or having them all be fairly one-dimensional, or having them all be on the lower end of the ability score for that particular ability. You don't need to make each faction have the perfect unit of a certain type.
    But I think you do need to have the units respective power reflected in the cost you pay for them. Pan-O's single shitty Engineer isn't nearly as good as Nomad's plethora of Engineers from incompetent to highly skilled, but it would be terribly detrimental to the game to hold that Engineer hostage at an extortionate cost because "sucks to be you, fork up if you want an Engineer" which is exactly what CC taxes do and what Automedikits do. No, said Engineer is simply bad at their job and you don't have the option to get multiple redundancies of them, that's already a fairly severe handicap, but at least you don't have to pay a lot of extra for it just because.

    If you need to attach a large hand-adjustment to a unit it better be because it's actually very uniquely good, otherwise why even release the product? See here the difference between Krit and Speculo, where the Automedikit grinds one into the the mud and fails to keep the other in line.

    I'll be honest with you, I don't watch Vaulsc' stuff. His initial videos were far too jam packed with errors that seemed to inform his views on things and there was too much about his style that grinds me the wrong way. As it is I don't truly trust his evaluation of things too much, particularly since the video on intent contained a grossly caricature representation of intent play.

    As it is, though, I consider the game already completely broken when the norm of competitive play has become what only Caledonia used to be designed to be, and now at the end of N3 CB is slowly starting to buff away the double nerfs they did to a bunch of stuff from N1 and N2. E.g. when was the last time you saw someone make full use of Smart Missiles?
     
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  2. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    ?

    There aren't a lot of troops with MA4, most of the typical CC experts (Domaru, Ninja, Shaolin, Fiday, even Speculo) are only MA3.
     
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  3. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    Not quite the point I was going for. I was going for something along the lines of Blue makes up for it's poor early critters in other ways. Also I think you are underselling the complexity of play in magic, but that is off topic.

    Individual respective power or over all utility? I mean the Clockmaker is a strong looking engineer but I find the actual value of a Machinist to be much greater thanks to the power of the targets she can repair.

    Well this is awkward...


    Because people will use it. I only think it's a issue if it never gets used in competitive play, or in some cases it's over use.


    You do yourself a disservice imo.
    I am something of a fanboy but agreeing with him is definitely not a prerequisite.
    My group loves watching his videos. we turn it almost into something of a sport. Lets take Scarface for example. My group values him as a top 3 competitive TAG in the game. One of Vaul's early videos had him being unimpressed with the tag, this was fallowed by much grumbling and shouting obscenities at the TV from our group. Then not that long ago Vaul was in a small little tournament and what do you know, he is running Scarface. This was also fallowed by much shouting, yelling, pointing, and cheering at the TV.
    Vaul then starts talking bad about Scarface again.
    So VaulSC is playing a Tag he dislikes in a competitive situation, what gives? Well there are two possibilities if we ignore outside game possibilities like cost.
    1) He is purposefully playing Jank and effectively trolling the other players. This would make me lose a little respect for him.
    2) He dislikes the unit as a individual but feels he has made a overall competitive list out of the sum of its parts. The other strengths of his list justify taking a comparatively to other TAGS bad unit.
    I don't know what this means or why it is important.
    TAGline when I took first place... we have all grown a lot from then however.
    Not all strategies get to be top tier. I don't really see this as mush of a issue.
    However amusingly I was going to try it out again soon with Nomads and see if I can make it work.
     
    #63 Andre82, Oct 10, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The tiresome ways of this community sometimes... of course it'll work and not be utterly completely dysfunctional! Not a single unit starts Unvoncious and Immobilized. Is it good and stands up to comparisons with other options? That's how something works or doesn't.
     
  5. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    So much for the friendly argument for the sake of argument eh?

    ?
    Well yes.... I am just saying direct comparisons to units not in your sectoral can sometimes be a shallow reading, but we can just agree to disagree as I don't have much skin in this argument anyway.
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Everytime someone presses the issue of whether a unit is good or not, someone will make the argument that it's still usable or come up with an anecdote of that one time it was used to great effect without analysing why and what could have been different or... you know... the whole "worth" analysis which is the topic. It's tiresome to rebutt because the other person isn't likely realizing that it's a strawman.

    Sure, try the SML. Personally I find the threat of the SML a better tool than the actual guided rule. The thing is, in N2 it was used frequently by particularly Nomads from what I hear, so they increased the hacking program protection, introduced a limit to the number of shots and made targeting harder as well as gave TAGs ECM. Since then using guided shots have become a rarity because it has become unpredictable.

    Likewise TAGs dominated for a while so they also got hit with two specific nerfs, one of which was that LTs were no longer a specialist in ITS (though again, hearsay because I didn't N2)

    The point is that Infinity factions (except O-12 and several sectorials) offer a great variety of tools and players will avoid the hand-adjusted units. If a faction is forced to use a hand-adjusted unit because it is the only unit of its role (such as order generator) then that faction is disadvantaged because hand-adjustments (or penalties) are not applied equally. This is as close to a dead model as you'll get in the rule system without Exrahing them (and again before you write it; they'll still provide orders and a gun, you can still use them, but they are not as good as they should be for the value you pay)

    P.s. if you compare a unit to an MTG deck, you need to consider that a deck is a lot more complex than an Infinity unit and that you're in full control of which abilities to get. There will be swings and balances and even though blue direct removal is more costly than black or tends to be a bit quirky, you decide if you need that removal or if you want to take the take the chance with the land mechanic to branch into black for it.
    We can't decide to not get an Automedikit for Krit and we can't branch into Haqq to get cheap smoke and jammers or Nomads to get cheaper Repeaters.
     
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  7. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    As far as I know, CB's intent at the beggining was that CC was "the last resort" for most units, because this is a shotting game ( they said something like that in n1), and a hard to get high reward, but deadly and dangerous option for the others. I think they get it right what they intended, but got just the other way: if you don't have absurdly high attribute, the correct skill and a good weapon, is a lackluster option. Now, +1 in CC is not worth 1 point, the same way MA1 or 2 were not worth in N1 (if you had not at least level3, was not worth to try). I think the actual system goes in a good way, but needs to get down the higher values (too much looking for the critic) and give easier burst bonus

    but some people want to play this game as if they were playing blood angels, and this is not the place (i'm not saying you do, just explaining what I've seen).
     
  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You know what, I wouldn't mind it if the game made last-resorting a valid option instead of having melee be a valuable option, but I fear it might need an ammo mechanic that might introduce too much bookkeeping overhead.
     
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  9. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    @TheRedZealot
    In addition to nuances that were already brought up, there are more:

    - MA 3 is actually often better than MA 2 at breaking ARM 8 boxes. In fact I think it's almost always the case unless you use someone like McMurrough who is much less reliant on crits to break through ARM thanks to having AP weapon on top of prodigious PH. Long story short, MA 2 is a disaster and a part of overarching problem infinity has with DAM / ARM.

    - Against low CC targets MA 4 is indeed very slightly better than MA 3, but also very slightly more risky. We're talking about ~1% difference here and there though. MA 4 can be situationally real though because it at least allows you to risk against 2 targets on the same Order or to drain 2 Wounds per Order with Protheon.

    - MA 5 is a gangbang deterrent more than anything, but only one of two MA 5 units can put that fact to any use, and even then it will usually come into play after making a misplay.

    All in all, even though optimal choices may sometimes differ, the difference is often minimal. What's worse, there are still no real choices here because you always know what should you pick. I don't think there's a point of expanding tables on CC in general for that reason. I'm not a believer of "those 1-2% are totally worth rule bloat and burden of knowledge that difference requires".
     
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  10. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Holy shit I ´didn't even read the rest of your post and instantly liked it for this sentence. I'm seriously considering opening up more accounts just to upvote this more.
    I completely agree that this aspect has gone on faaaar to much now. Now we're at a point where people will scoff at you and spit in your general direction, as the lowly peasant that you are, if you bring less than 16-17 regular orders. It's too much to be honest and the worst thing they've done IMO is rewarding the small lists with immunity to -2 orders... Only to introduce Counter Intelligence to high order count armies, and completely undermine the bonuses given out to small elite lists.
     
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  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I did actually run a few numbers when I posted earlier and MA2 is always, always, better than MA3, regardless if the target is an ARM 0 supply box or an ARM 8 AC2.
    This is true for Ninja (DA CCW, PH12) as well as Saito (EXP CCW, PH 13) and Achilles (EXP CCW, PH 14). I also ran for Shaolin (DA PH 13), McMurrogh (EXP AP PH 16), and Neko (EXP AP PH 14).
    The only exception is this spec op: Open in Infinity Army (who will still choose MA4, not MA3), or a potential K1 CCW unit (which I don't think exists)
     
  12. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Alright, I must've goofed something up there, using some units that realistically will hit scenery elements bring up same results.
     
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  13. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Thats an interesting point but given the differences in the Prothion Table and the limited number of Prothion users they dont really have to make the same decisions as MA users do.

    But is that any different from Shooting? The only difficult decision in the majority of shooting circumstances, even for units with Multi weapons /fire modes (which I would argue is probably the closest equivalent) is not even a question. There is almost always a clear optimal choice. "Oh you have dogged then I want shock." "Well you're in cover so its Impact Template"

    Occasionally you'll run into some minor issues if the range bands are a little foggy but you have the same thing when you're moving into CC anyway.
     
  14. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Actually, it's usually not different for shooting, but we aren't trying to build tables around it to solve issues real and imagineable. So I think it's rather solid plan to not overcomplicate anything. We pick targets, we roll dice, then things go poof with certain probability. If you look at it like this, even skills that mimic effects of stats feel kinda redundant*, nevermind making choices that matter by a margin of few percents in niche cases.

    * - Unless you want dynamics with very powerful pieces and tailored counters like with ODD/MSV2 or MA3 / NBW maybe, although with the latter waters are mudded because of "normal" NBW mode, making difference less stark.
     
  15. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    Ok but speaking of Strawman you do realize that is not my point right? I am arguing that the metric of worth it looks like you are using is not the one I would use.

    Maybe this is an example you can agree with.
    Aquila Guard VS Hsien.
    Aquila Guard has +1 BS and +1MSV. Is that 4 more points of CC, martial arts, +1 wip and a nanopulser worth that? Well maybe, but I would rather have the Aquila Guard myself. However, the Hsien also has smoke in his faction.... his actual value that is not reflected in his point cost just jumped up pretty sharply by my accounting. That CC tax is not looking that out of place to me right now.

    Ok but I don't think this is true.
    Do you think PanO benefits from that Mercenary format equally to all other factions or do you think Pano gets a little extra value?
    I value the Hsien and Machinist higher then there stat superior counterparts. I don't see them as dead models.
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Then it might be more conductive to ask for clarification if you don't know how the other person evaluates the unit or provide your own perspective on the why a unit is valuable instead of dropping a tautology that a unit can receive orders and declare skills.

    Smoke is a mobility skill, if you use it to get MODs for your MSV2+ units then most of the time it has a similar function to a fairly expensive and order-inefficient ODD. There is undeniable synergy, though, but all indications I can see is that Smoke Grenades are probably a bit too inexpensive for how easy to use they are.
    That said, I really don't understand your comparison here. Hsien has a useful level of CC, it's in the twilight area where it's not necessarily great but it's also not a bad choice if it allows you to gain some ground and the target is alone and a push-over in melee. I don't really have an issue with the Hsien, other than what I see with nearly all HI, so I'm a bit stumped for what you're going for here..

    Sorry, you're blind-siding me with Mercenary format here, let's not muddle the topic further. If you mean the Monstertrucker, then I don't like so many factions having access to it, but Zewrath has a thread on that in the non-faction specific forums. O-12 is going the right way with a very limited set of mercs that makes sense to the fluff is all I'll say here.

    I literally don't know where you got the idea that I think the Hsien is somehow bad from. I can only think you're conflating someone else' opinions with mine.
    As for the Machinist you've probably missed my point here. The Machinist isn't hand-adjusted. Its cost closely (not ever going to claim "perfectly") reflects the value it has, but it is not good at being an Engineer. Kind of. If it wasn't for that somehow CB felt obliged to release the pinup (I forget her ICS). So my question to you is, would you still think the Machinist was great if it was changed to get more survival, that is to say an Automedikit at 19 points?

    In either case, I think we'll soon have to wrap up the discussion about hand-adjustments because it's off topic, as so far it's something that they removed from the game in HSN3 when they fixed the Pheasant and I'm really not going for a generalized N4 game design discussion with this topic.
    I'd say this line of arguments belongs to the general N4 topic if you'd like to see hand-adjustments return or the caravansary as a general non-Infinity specific discussion on game design.
     
  17. Andre82

    Andre82 Well-Known Member

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    ...but that what I am doing.
    The hell are you talking about with this can receive orders nonsense anyway?
    I know my English is crap but are you purposefully misrepresenting my arguments because I disagree with you, or am I really not being clear enough? I will assume it's me, but for the love of god stop strawmanning me will you?

    I can tell, don't think you have been fallowing anything I have been saying.

    But.... It works really well to highlight my point and all it really takes from you is a simple question.
    Is each faction getting the same value from this format or can some factions leverage the added choices better then others?
    Not sure I can make it any simpler then that.

    Yah... honestly for just one point more then a clockmaker it's still a pretty solid choice.
    Changing it is definitely a small nerf to PanO but I would bet it still shows up in competitive lists even at 19 points. I could be wrong however.
    Comparing something like a mechanist to a clockmaker is a superficial reading if your not also considering how the faction uses them.
    But I agree, this conversation is not going anywhere, and it's not worth the hassle. Lets just agree to disagree.[/QUOTE]
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it is a strawman directly discussing a specific side-topic, but let's leave that whole discussion at the road side - it was above all else just me being frustrated at a single small specific common logical fallacy, not your overall argumentation.
    If you think I'm misrepresenting your arguments then it's simply that I don't understand what you're trying to convey. Your English is as good as perfect, so there's something else that's making both of us talk past each other.

    No seriously. I don't understand what you're trying to say there. You seem to be implying I think the Hsien is the one being hand-adjusted by having abilities that are too costly, but I think it's the Aquila who's got the short end of the stick and bringing secondary models and synergies into it makes the comparison extremely complicated.
    As a response to our debate I can't really understand what message you're trying to get across. Maybe use the Bao, a model I loudly think is kind of terribly designed, instead?


    I don't think it is quite as simple a question, but let's attempt an answer.

    If you read a bit between the lines about what I consider faction balance to ideally be made with, you'll see that anything which grants a massive flood of abilities to everyone will break game balance unless the flood is great enough to erase faction identity completely. I'm not a fan of the Mercenary extra at all.
    As for Pan-O, I can't answer this. Theoretically I think Pan-O likely benefits more than Yu Jing does, simply because light smoke (eclipse) grenade launchers are kind of terrible on BS10 or 11 platforms, but I haven't played sufficiently against anything Pan-O other than Varuna to give a sufficiently informed opinion on Pan-O specifically, and even Varuna I don't think I'd be able to really get into the shoes of to answer the question "what models are worth losing 1 SWC over".

    So... no, each faction doesn't get the same value, because it messes with the primary balancing and identity tool which is ability access.

    Before we agree to disagree, just let me check that I understand your bottom line: you think it is fine for units to have arbitrary points discounts or penalties in order to steer each faction towards a specific set of unit types. And that the penalties are there to offer players the option to go outside those sets at a penalty.