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Yu Jing in N4

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Eh, I wouldn't go that far, but I would really want CB to take the [ expletives deleted ] TacWare units out!

    My complaint about Dashat is definitely that they got plenty of orders *and* got TacWare to boot!


    Wu Ming MultiLGL is always a good option!
     
  2. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Speaking as a part-time Dashat player I think I'd probably survive ok without TacAwareness on the various Zhuyong profiles. You could also remove capacity for the Rui Shi to link without seriously harming the sectorial's competitive viability, although at that point you're basically making faction changes to try to reduce the salt content in the Yu Jing player base rather than for any particular balance reasons. It's a bit of a commentary on the Yu Jing community how this conversation is happening in the Yu Jing N4 thread rather than the NA2 N4 thread, really.
     
    Alphz likes this.
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Would that be a commentary on Yu Jing saltiness or a commentary on how the English Yu Jing community has almost overwhelmingly been discussing Dahshat as if it's a Yu Jing sectorial? I would say it's the second, to be honest.
     
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  4. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Por que no los dos?
     
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  5. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    There's also this problem that a lot of factions with access to Multi tech just forget how to produce your normal sniper rifles without 1.5 SWC gimmicks.
    Pretty sure 0.5 SWC off every Multi sniper produced fills the pocket of a higher-up in military procurement of almost every nation.
     
    csjarrat likes this.
  6. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I don't have to play it that way. I like to play it that way. Hopefully that do well with White Banner and I'll play that instead.
     
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  7. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    Yeah no-ones holding a gun to our heads. I'm playing Yu Jing pretty happilly and doing fairly well so not sure what other metas are doing differently that would be such a tidal shift in viability
     
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  8. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    Vanilla and ISS are really good, IA packs a punch but is much, much harder to play, and folds against overly agressive players if the haidao sniper dies too fast. Also list building drives me nuts.
     
    #668 Sedral, Feb 19, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
  9. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    And there's your strawman.

    The complaint isn't "Dahshat is YJ but better", the complaint is that "Dahshat is IA but better" and that was literally the complaint since the beginning, very specifically even.

    - Dahshat can run Zuyong core but better and more optimised.
    - The Rui Shi is available to the IA sectorial but not in a linked format and doesnt count as a Zuyong... except not only does it count as one in Dahshat but it also have access to smoke support, which is non-existent in IA. Furthermore, you're welcome to downplay the linked Rui Shi all you want, but no one is up in arms about the core as everyone and their dog knows that the real deal is B5 in a compact Haris +1 Tactical Awareness order to reposition the link.
    - Dahshat have, for some reason, access to Tactical Awereness profiles, even though the initial reason for that rule was an extra order for extensive tactical training in regiments.. Not some rando merc who bought Zuyong armour.
    -The Hulang is unplayable in IA and while not a good profile in Dahshat, he at least got access to units that can support him with smoke.

    Funny you should mention that because literally the reason why the Zhencha got added to the sectorial, along with the Tactical Awereness HMG Zuyong, even when they weren't there on the initial release. CB literally admitted that they just threw a bunch of profiles together with not much testing and just because it would be cool.

    I think it's perfectably reasonable that players of a sectorial, like IA, which gets several limitations on their wildcats and non-linkable options, questions the thought process behind another very swiftly released sectorial, where all core units abandons all limitations (and Dahshat's wildcard were so out of control with wildcard-count-as, that they forced CB to enforce the rule of having minimum 1 model ACTUALLY be the real model ), and have a massive influx of midfield camo units, and stupidly optimised units like Libertos, which even have meme-tier 1 point upgrade to make them even better.
    I also think it's worth talking about that the sectorial seems to be slightly overperforming, which begs the question if that is due to the fact that the sectorial seems to not have been properly tested, if tested at all.

    So in light of all this, it's quite immature and eye-rolling when you boil it down to "lulz Y U YJ players so salty m8! Git gud and don't be jelly!".
    Now I wish that last part was me being hyperbolic, but sadly that's merely paraphrasing your attitude towards legitimate complaints about Dahshat.
     
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  10. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Your feelings are absolutely valid and I see no particular reason to post a dissenting opinion to any of the above. :)
     
    #670 RobertShepherd, Feb 19, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
  11. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but i say if you feel Dahshat is better IA than IA, then play it! What's it going to hurt? Your pride? Yu Jing? Right now I'm playing both. Because I can.
     
    #671 Space Ranger, Feb 19, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2020
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  12. Solodice

    Solodice Freshly Squeezed Troll

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    Because they don't want to? They want to play Invincible Army not IA plus Haqq and Merc friends that get rid of limitations because why not. It's also a misunderstanding that people aren't saying IA is unplayable. It's playable. However, there is a fair criticism to lay down against Dashat doing what IA does but better. It really eats into faction identity and uniqueness.

    New players are going to come in and want to put IA on the table while someone will just tell them to go play Dashat instead. That's not how that should work at all. It should be an alternative option to use your IA models in a different faction and not just the superior choice.

    Oh, the backhand and insincere nature are pungent here...

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    No, 'cause if I start playing Dashat I don't see any reason to keep playing IA at all, and momma didn't raise no quitter!
     
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  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Generally speaking I think there's two decent general strategies in IA: Mowang/Hac Tao supported by Zhanshi, and Zuyong. I don't think Guijia works well because support troops are too expensive.

    Dahshat does ONE of those two better because a Rui Shi is much better than a Son-Bae or any of the IA heroes in a Fireteam, once you figure costs, and that is Zuyong.

    Dahshat can't replicate Mowang NCO pushing, but it also isn't a very potent strategy because Mowang aren't Kriza level badass and Hac Tao lacks TA or NCO for order dumping.
    On the other hand, Dahshat has a couple of strategies revolving massed infantry that IA can't (shouldn't) do.

    Generally speaking, Dahshat is slightly more tactically flexible and slightly stronger punch because of McMurrough and the Rui Shi both being very cost effective along with fishmen.
    This doesn't mean Dahshat is simply "IA but better" but it means it is partially IA *and* better.

    No anger from my side over Dahshat, but I do think the IA characters should be providing the tactical benefits enough that Rui Shi doesn't just trounce them for utility. Lei Gong does help.
     
  15. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    I gave like for this sole sentence.

    Also it suprises me people start to employee Panggos in their couch Zhanshi link. Because of Light shotgun?
     
  16. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Speaking of Mowang, I've rarely encountered such an overrated unit. I can't for the life of me see what he brings over a Hac Tao, except the extra wound, which doesn't matter anyway as he has a much stronger proctection; marker state. To me. he's a neutered and nerfed Kriza Borac.

    Dope ass model though, for sure.
     
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  17. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    Guess its his nature of easiness and neon-shiney synergy with Daoying (Oi put dis in ur army with dis and u get 2 moar orders!), along with him rarely gets one-shotted while attacking.

    Hac taos, well, I saw a guy engaging him withing HFT range and mutter 'his no good'.
     
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  18. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Disagree on the harder to play part being the problem.
    That's literally the git gud argument just wrapped differently.

    However IA do not have a high Skill ceiling (at least not relatively speaking).
    That would require them to have complex rules with tricky interactions and strengths in harder to use aspects of the game, i.e. CC, minor toolkits everywhere to come up with creative solutions on the fly, asymmetric trading your way to success or handling a massive list with basically all troop types included (requiring the ability to play them all properly).

    I.A. has some challenges and that's playing the game without the ability to rely on Smoke support, playing a game that has Hackers with basically only hackable Active Troops and for the most part you'll have to deal with careful Link positioning to avoid catastrophic damage vs anything with an Impact template.
    All of those are limitations to offset, being able to deal with them is a requirement making them playable and doesn't increase performance, just allows normal function reflecting the points you shell out for a bunch of HI.

    The Zuyong Core has enough punch thanks to being an Order battery but is very squishy in the reactive turn. Relatively low Dodge, limited miscellaneous ARO options like Blitzen/Panzerfaust/Flashpulse + Shotgun/SMG Profiles. Unfortunately none of it's upgrades and upsides contribute to durability leaving it a offensively potent glasscannon without the supporting cast to screen it from threats by other means. At the end the full Core moving up the field is mostly a liability. You'll be much happier building a HI centered list around Magister or Riot Grrrl Cores. However the IA Haris and heavy solo options are pretty great.

    Dashat having the HMG HI in an LI Core, the Haris and the supporting cast already makes it a better army. Then they get the Tac Awareness Profiles, Core Rui Shi and all the shit increasing Skill ceiling on top. Cheap bodies, Smoke, CC and Smoke support to set it up, utility everywhere and the Orders to use all of the possible options.

    Can the Haidao (Link) and Lt L2 + NCO trick (which Vanilla YJ does better) make up for that?
    No. You'll still be crippled by a somewhat serious alphastrike in IA.
    I'm far from happy about any of that.
    The game has options to strain the opposition's Order Pool without requiring the ability to spam cheap bodies or high risk low cost AROs (Flashpule/Panzerfaust...).
    Decoy and Dazers are new tools to do just that. For some reason they ended up elsewhere on Troops and Profiles that would be perfectly alright without them. Inbetween the new tools and existing tools like Ambush Camo or plain old AP Minelayers and Perimeter Weapons IA could have had the means to defend its expensive yet squishy pieces living the dream of a low body count, high octane army. The tools to do that got introduced right along with it, seemingly as an afterthought for other armies not requiring them to function.
     
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  19. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Well-Known Member

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    For vanilla - safe offensive datatracker option for things like decapitation or frostbyte
    For IA there is a duo option to bring Haidao specialist along for the ride on free LT2-NCO orders while you are blasting flashpulse bots or whatever

    Flammenspeer is a pretty nifty thing that punishes unit clumps or forces enemy to move around more carefully
     
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  20. Zewrath

    Zewrath Nordic Master

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    Good point. I guess I've had the Su-Jian stuck on that role for too long to consider other options.