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Yu Jing in N4

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I think the complaint is that Dahshat is IA but better, not YJ but better. Unlike where Ikari is a side-grade JSA, Dahshat is kind of an upgrade to IA - different, but the difference is increasing performance. It wouldn't have been a big deal that Ikari took one of ISS' schticks and did it better nor that Dahshat took the primary schtick of YJ (which is arguably the Rui Shi together with smoke) and did it better if IA had been delivered with quite fewer limitations and sourdoughs. But it is salt applied to scabs, if not wounds.

    That said, I think Dahshat is very strong, but that they'll become more mediocre as the meta gets more defined by them (at which point Spiral and Shasvasti will easily usurp the throne), and it's perfectly fine for them to exist as they are. Ditto the Ikari Haris profile. It would've been thematic and proper if those features were a thing in their home sectorials (Rui Shi linkability arguably in IA as I think it would've wrecked a bit too much havoc if they were linkable with e.g. Zhanying in ISS due to prevalence of smoke there).
    After all the defining feature of Dahshat will remain to be McMurrough and the Authorized Brawler link while for Ikari it's KeiTanko links and Haqq pirates.

    P.s. does anyone actually use Wu Ming in Ikari? They look so malplaced (like... what are they even doing there?) and the few times I see Ikari it's always KeiTanko
     
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  2. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    I see the haris reasonably frequently as a low-cost assault option, although it's a little less common now that Karakuri also effectively fill the role. The full core is much more scenario dependent - there's an argument for it in missions where you need to move a lot of points to a specific place at a specific time, but the link built around the Tanko missile launcher is just such a solid list backbone that it's hard to pass up.
     
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  3. csjarrat

    csjarrat Well-Known Member
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    I've used it, linked LGL and HMG for the win
     
  4. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    Interesting. What do you think about Dashat's weakness? Their lack of Elite unit, or gun range?
     
  5. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Let me preface this by saying that I think Dashat's a very strong army and I've had good results with them personally, but they've got some exploitable weaknesses that emerge after you play them a little. In no particular order;
    • Predictability: every sectorial (and popular vanilla army) suffers this to an extent, but by dint of having a limited model roster Dashat has relatively 'solved' basic list compositions, which makes surprising people with them more difficult and reduces their ability to project uncertainty through hidden information. If a Dashat list drops four camo tokens and has 2SWC unaccounted for, they've got to be trying something pretty spicy (and probably suboptimal) for most opponents to not know immediately what's hiding under those markers.
    • Defence: Dashat's capacity to absorb or deflect a dedicated assault is limited. The usual two libertos are good, but Dashat can't layer their defence the way a faction like vanilla nomads or YJ can - they have a high opportunity cost to access powerful long-range ARO elements, have a limited defensive hacking network, and no close-range template ARO pieces like warbands. If you can push through the initial ablative layer of the libertos, the bulk of their army is vulnerable to close quarters attacks by the right units.
    • Weak warband synergy/smoke access: McMurrough is a powerful element, but Kum Riders are poor warband models without more manageable 4-4 MOV smoke throwers to support them. This limits how much advantage Dashat can take of the impetuous phase, and handbrakes the Rui Shi a little compared to a Yu Jing Rui Shi that can enjoy plentiful smoke thanks to 5pt Shaolin Monks.
    • Decapitation vulnerability: both literal and more general. Dashat usually have an obvious lieutenant, which is exploitable, but in addition they tend to be vulnerable to the removal of key pieces. They have the order count of a horde army, but not the capacity to project threat from every model. Contrast with Yu Jing's standard four kuang shi and four monks, where every model potentially poses a threat to the enemy - Dashat will have four Fanous flash remotes and possibly two Traktor muls, who can't undertake offensive actions. This means that if you can kill a few models, like McMurrough, the Rui Shi and a Zhuyong, Dashat's ability to translate their high order pool into successful action starts to peter out.
    • Linked Rui Shi aren't actually that good: a Rui Shi is strongest in vanilla Yu Jing where it gets to combine supportware provided at no meaningful order cost by the liuetenant Daoying, with plentiful smoke provided at no meaningful order by the shaolin monks, and it's low resilience is mitigated by good layers of different defensive elements. In Dashat, it gets the benefit of a haris or core link, but linking it with 4-4 models can significantly limit its movement. In Yu Jing, my Rui Shi wants to move aggressively in straight lines through smoke until it gets an ideal engagement (often within 8" of the enemy to abuse forcing ZOC AROs to avoid retaliation). Putting it in a link with anything except maybe a tactical awareness haris zhuyong, and without the same access to smoke to lay a straight-line path, makes the Dashat Rui Shi much less capable of such decisive action. It's still very good in Dashat, mind you, but much more in spite of the sectorial benefits than because of them.
     
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  6. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    As a result of a conversation I just had with a mate I'd also add:
    • Doesn't like asymmetric defences: Dashat's offence (McMurrough, Libertos, core-linked Zhuyong HMG, linked or unlinked Rui Shi) is excellent at launching attacks against conventional defences but sucks at punching through a properly layered defence that's positioned behind disposable elements, corner templates, closer-ranged BS attacks and ZOC AROs like erasers, jammers and hacking. Only McMurrough really wants to risk a trip through a minefield and take something like a flamethrower ARO and he can start to run short on orders getting through those elements safely (and god help you in the highly unlikely event that he fails a dodge and PH check against a Madtrap). They can push through these kind of defences given time and patience but much prefer a straight up gunfight that they can dominate with high stats and order counts - which many opponents simply will not give them.
    I'd probably caveat that with: if you play on relatively open tables and especially tables with weak deployment zone positions where enfilade fire can wipe out an army (e.g. tables that don't put any terrain in the back 8" of the table), Dashat will blow you out an airlock, and also you should play on tables with stronger deployment zone positions.
     
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  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't say that a Daoying provides Supportware at no cost considering how it uses fuel that one of the better Liaison Officers or a Mowang could use. Nothing really beats an extra Hacker in group 2, provided said hacker can survive first round. Low cost Hunzakut can also provide a decent damper and slow down most pushers, including opposing McMurrough.

    The general lack of hacking, however, with only Gromoz in a Zuyong link reaching any form of level that can be described as "good" is distinctive.
     
  8. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    ...liaison officers?

    Edit: Oh, right. Tai Sheng. Took me a second. Yes, Yu Jing's best-in-breed NCOs do mean that spending a lieutenant L2 order still carries some opportunity cost, but I think the overall point that a vanilla Yu Jing Rui Shi enjoys a relatively unparalleled level of support at low cost pretty much stands.
     
  9. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    Thanks for your detailed opinion. It surely did broaden my experience.
     
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  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Well, yes, Dahshat isn't very good at using all those fancy Pitchers or the Repeater on the Rui Shi, where as any Yu Jing variation will have a killer hacker waiting for an opportunity to make use of the Repeater (because Yu Jing high command heard "pitcher" and responded "that's just not cricket" in a stunning display of faux Britishness). Daoying is brilliant, don't get me wrong, but her brilliance stems less from how she supports a Rui Shi (which is to say, not a lot since you're not likely to want to break camo just because an AHD gets close to your Rui Shi) and more from the fact that she's also an LT and also hides in marker state so that's two qualities that's both mandatory when using Rui Shi and frees up unit slots.

    But adding to your list of Dahshat complications that players can look at exploiting; Gromoz has a tendency to end up inside the Rui Shi link for a few reasons (e.g. that's where the Tinbot is and general list building constraints), this means that the Fireteam as such tends to have a bit of extra vulnerability to AHD that the Tinbot doesn't quite cure due to how AROs would get Gromoz kicked out if she attempts a hack ARO a lot of the time.
    A free roaming Rui Shi (which Dahshat is capable of) doesn't have this problem
     
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  11. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Make sure to add this to Dashat group!

    I can back up almost everything Robert said. I've done both IA and Dashat. The Rui Shi link is not "all that". One thing to note is that Dashat has Saito Togan for an attack piece as well. Who i've liked more than McMurough lately.

    I kind of understand the hurt in some ways. It's a pride thing. I've mitigated that by playing Dashsat instead of feeling bad about it. But then I also think of Dashat as a subsection of Yu Jing. Not it's own thing. Also, I don't play more than one tournament a year, so I don't feel a Dashat win is a NA2 win or Yu Jing win. To me a Hunzakut is a Guilang, an Al'Faseed is a Yan Huo, etc. I'm even using all of my old 1st. edition figures for it. My 1st edition Zhanshi are Ghulam, and 2nd edition are Bounty Hunters.
     
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  12. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    There is something wrong when Yu Jing players have to play another faction to feel like they are playing Yu Jing
     
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  13. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    It's not performance, it's principle.
     
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  14. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    This way madness and needless unhappiness lies.
     
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  15. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Looking over my models, specifically Zuyong MULTI Rifle, and considering the need to reign in SKUs, Coronavirus Belli should probably work to make profiles everybody has but nobody uses more attractive. How do we fix this guy? Is he just a victim of bad MULTI Rifle pricing?

    upload_2020-2-15_10-31-29.png

    There are core parts of the Yu Jing experience.
     
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  16. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Actually, that's on me. I'd forgotten that the primary occupation of this forum since mid-2018 was intentionally sabotaging its own happiness.
     
  17. Alphz

    Alphz Kuang Shi Vet. Retired.

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    One might be forgiven for thinking it's a core faction identity trait.
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Pretty much a victim of bad MULTI pricing (is MULTI really worth around 10-15 points over a normal HMG? Is MULTI really worth 4 points AND 1 SWC over a Shock Sniper? Actually, the MULTI Sniper is a bit more nuanced because the anti-materiel mode isn't limited in burst which means that for some, but not all, units it is worth it)

    It's a bit sad how this sculpt exists and how it has seldom been labelled with the weapon it's carrying given how MULTI Rifle isn't a significant enough upgrade, I feel, that it should be presented as an option on units on its own. E.g. going from Combi+Flamer to MRifle (Shang-Ji) isn't an upgrade because this is such a basic weapon and it prevents you from gaining further functionality within the unit. Conversely, going from a Combi to an MRifle+Light Grenade Launcher (Wu Ming) is an upgrade because the selection is gaining a new and unique role. Generally speaking, though, I think units should have either a Combi or a MRifle as their assault rifle across all their profiles, but that might just be me.
    I think this is true for all units that have mixed weapons, and far from just a Yu Jing thing
     
  19. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    I've had some good success with the multi rifle zuyong as the filler guy when I have the point to spare to upgrade the boarding shotgun zuyong. It's one of the few source of shock ammo for the paintrain, and DA/Stun ammo are no joke in ARO, but there's a million thing you can have in your team and he is kinda low priority.
     
  20. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    MULTI rifles will be more valuable once the ridiculousness of SMGs is reigned in I guess
     
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