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Yu Jing in N4

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    I don't think we're gonna see an extensive rework over the liuxing... but we'll probably see some changes to "AD: combat jump", "engage" or other rules that could benefit him indirectly

    My wishes for IA are some clever minor changes on it's signature troops and their profiles, and Maybe a new troop to provide what the sectorial lacks and desperately needs.
     
    #601 Mc_Clane, Jan 1, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2020
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  2. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    Coming back to this after a good think.
    Heavy shotgun Mowang.
    • Fits the fluff role
    • Differentiates mowang from Yan huo
    • Remedies the sad rarity of HSG in the game
    • If it had 2 heavy pistols, no sculpt necessary.
     
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  3. holycannoli

    holycannoli Dancing to Kazak Kalinka

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    Shotguns are interesting, and I wish they saw more use on my table. When they work they freaking work. Shotguns and memetism are horrifying units to be within 8" of. I know some of the people here know the lore better than me, but any reason why vulcan shotguns seem to be a unicorn weapon outside of the alien factions? Seems they would be fitting for the mowang's jungle fighter fluff, and would make him distinct from the Ratnik, while still feeling like a S5 HI wrecking ball. The pts discount is nice as it may make him mesh with some of our pricier fireteams but still have a mowang to kick in doors.
     
  4. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    HSG Mowang? What it would do is sacrificing a lot of range necessitating backup to clear stuff from range for it to get in, and also a lot of orders before you can hit stuff on top of that, and even ability to win FtF rolls (because +2 B is generally better than +3 EBS in your good range) for a template which Spitfire Mowang kind of has already with Flammenspeer (provided you use it over RF which I generally wouldn't tbh).

    That profile would need something else in order to be any competitive. Like, at least twin HSGs to match realistic firepower of the rest of profiles. Although I think the rest of drawbacks will still kill such a profile unless you are going to use it on a truly claustrophobic table.
     
    #604 Barrogh, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
  5. Janzerker

    Janzerker Invincible Angry

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    A HSG Mowang could be a brutal doorkicker for sure. But I agree it would be still lacking something. I would give him a mine dispenser in order to complement this unit. I think it would make for a very fluffy jungle fighting profile. Regarding the lack of long range firepower, well there's duo.

    My main concern with the Mowang is the Multi rifle profile, which feels useless and the spitfire, which feels redundant. I think maybe the Multi rifle Mowang is the place where to add a light grenade launcher instead of the flamenspeer. And regarding the spitfire profile, as Matahmori already suggested, turning it into an AP spitfire profile would solve the redundancy and provide the Mowang with the antiarmor firepower it's lacking.
     
  6. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Blitzen or Panzerfaust, HSG, 2 Heavy Pistols. Disposable weapon to close or for ARO duty, then you get your choice of higher B or lower B and nastier hits, in close.

    Mine Dispenser would be just amazing, basically a Raicho up close but harder to hit. Ooooouch.

    A brutal close-range Mowang would be way more likely to see Duo duty than a couple of basically-similar Mowangs with Spitfire like guns.
     
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  7. holycannoli

    holycannoli Dancing to Kazak Kalinka

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    Also there's the fact the hsg mowang would be considerably cheaper in pts and swc than the other models. Though that might go out the window with a mine dispenser.

    I love that combo, thematic, useful, brutal and different.
     
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  8. the huanglong

    the huanglong Well-Known Member

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    Should be a thing
     
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  9. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    I hope they boost a little the Multi rifle in general. It needs it like breathing. Shangji Multi, Zuyong multi, y other pieces like those doesn't ever see a table. It's a shame K1 rifles, T2 rifles, viral rifles and Plasma rifles don't suffer

    Just by having a good active mode would bump up multi profiles by a lot! Gosh! even the cranes would become crazier
     
  10. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I really don’t understand that. I don’t think it needs changes at all in function. Maybe a bit cheaper. A Multi-Rifle is an AP Rifle, Shock Rifle, a Contender, and Stun Rifle, all rolled into one weapon! That’s some huge flexibility against certain troops. That’s not bad for only 4pts more than a plain combi-rifle. I only wish it had some more ammo like Breaker.
     
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  11. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    4 points is a huge of a deal. We're talking here about two times the price of a mimetism, A viral rifle cost increase from a combi, a frigging MSV2 or a Doctor Skill.

    Matematically it may be correct

    AP rifle +1point from a regular rifle
    Shock rifle +1 point from a regular rifle
    Contender +1 point
    Stun Contender (probably +1 point) (and even Stun pistols have Burst 2 and they give them for free on the relevant missions)

    But here wer're talkin about mutually exclusive options. If you choose one you can't use the others. so you´ll never get the full value of them, just a 1/4 or maybe 1/2 if you consider active/reactive options separatedly.

    Then we have to measure the efectiveness and potential inside. a viral rifle is potentially 2 times more deadly compared to a shock or AP rifle and more than 3 times compared to a contender due to burst. AP only becomes more deadly than DA from a difference of of more than 5-6 points between defensive atributes (ARM or BTS). And things get crazyer if we talk about plasma and it's crazy template, Better on most cases than AP+Breaker because it tooks out cover,and madly breaks Fireteams just for paying out +6 points instead of 4.

    On other line of thinking, if Infinity ONE is a simplification we can't make a weapon with several weapon profiles. Is better to have just one weapon profile and specify the ammo types that it includes. If we say a rule multi weapons include X ammos, That may represent a problem for the antimaterial and stun modes.

    Back into the metta, the multi rifle is almost only chosen if there is almost no other choice, and almost allways on top gear profiles to make missions and impose mods, like the killer hacker hactao. But I'ts hard to see it on plain vanilla profiles like the zuyongs. I've even find hard to see the Hsien multi. Even they recently made combi profiles on clasic HI multi rifle troops like the Hospitalier Knights and the Asuras. That's a sign that people, and even testers, find hard to pay for that set of ammos and fit them into their lists

    Multi rifle needs some fixing. (but that's just an opinion)
     
    #611 Mc_Clane, Jan 23, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
  12. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it's good to bring up other forces in the comparison. They don't have many multi-weapons but they do have fixed of certain ammo like as you said, Viral. It's a giving up of a good fixed Ammo for a variety. You have one guy that can deal with both good armor, NWI, and DA for ARO. As opposed to a Viral rifle that is shooting at a HI with bio-immunity. YJ doesn't have many of those Ammo types for reasons. They will probably never have Viral outside of Lunah. Viral is great but it's just not happening.

    Also arguing about wasted potential doesn't makes sense. It's a bit of a "of course".

    It's not the troops fault they have ohter weapons that are really better than the multi-too. Everyone does the HMG Hsien over the Multi. I have so far yet to take a Combi Zuyong except for the Tinbot Harris. Who actually takes a plain Combi-Rifle Zuyong? I will be very surprised if i don't see a Zuyong TA HMG in a link. It's the #1 go to.
     
  13. Mc_Clane

    Mc_Clane Zhànzhēng bùzhǎng
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    I just think multi rifle doesn't worth it's price. Is not a wanted asset in most of the cases.

    My point is not to ask for a Viral rifle in yujing, My point is asking for a Multi that could be an interesting asset just by put it on the hands of anyone. That could be a boost to many troops in almost all factions. Even for example a cost reduction to +3 points instead of +4, a revamp of AP/Shock to AP+shock or a B2 antimaterial mode. Something that proves to be a real asset instead of an overpriced gun that cost you an order every 2 included ( Specially when only pays out on marginal occasions)

    The reason the Multi zuyong is not taken is because it's expensive. Even if it would have something more into it, like a direct template it would be expensive. And the same can be applied to the shangji. It's no fault of the profile, gosh, most weapons shine on the hands of a BS13 troop, the fault is from the weapon to not provide a value worth it's cost when a similar alternative is present.

    When would you pay for a base combi zuyong? wen you don't need specialists and you don't want to pay 7 points for a second irregular order on your coreteam? I have my issues with were they've placed the Tactical awareness for a lot of reasons. They've wasted quite many zuyong profiles on the process. but that's a tale for another day.
     
  14. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Well unfortunately we need to work with what we have an not what we want. I've love other ammo but I feel that as of now, the MR needs not change in function. But I'd like too see a pt change.
     
  15. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Doing several things better by barely noticeable margin than a basic tool is not the kind of flexibility people can be excited about, especially when said basic tool is a sad thing you always want either to replace for efficiency or remove for points.
     
  16. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    Is Mowang Spitfire redundant? I always pick up that fella, never fails me; would love to hear reasons.

    Besides, isn't Multirfl very versatile weapon to swing with. Quite interesting theories we got here.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Because +1 DAM is seldom worth +2 points and +1 SWC when you're losing Shock. Can it be worth it sometimes? Yes. Is it the very definition of a side-grade? Absolutely.

    Multi-rifle version is very unpopular and I think for a good reason, plus it seems the few lists that picked them tended to lose whereas the Red Fury Mowang for vanilla has an eye-boggling track record of both being relatively popular and participating in unusually large amount of wins. Again, it's not at all interesting to hear about when it could, theoretically, be useful*, it's only interesting to see when that is put in practice in the context of the game, the terrain, and the opponent and from what little we can tell the Multi-rifle version isn't there, which is unfortunately a common issue for Multi-rifle profiles in general.

    * After all, this particular unit can't teleport.
     
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  18. ObviousGray

    ObviousGray Frenzied Mushroom
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    Does it? I thought abundancy of Bioimmune and BTS frauders became nastier, since Muktahrs are fairly common view along wity Rouhani. That made me favor spit than RF
     
  19. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    It's still only a +1 DAM that does almost nothing, even if it was free. But it's far from free.

    You do get a template weapon with it though, so there's that.
     
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  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Bioimmune isn't very abundant, Shock Immune is - but on the other hand, Dogged and NWI on non-immune profiles are more common still.

    I have never faced Khawarij other than Tarik in Sweden so I wouldn't know, but Muktar are Shock Immune so they don't get to fudge with BTS versus Shock and Ramah also have Wild Bill, Carmen, Namurr, and Doctor+ for which Shock is very useful. Elsewhere, Red Fury is greatly preferred against Varangians that are key units for O-12 and a surprising number of models among Aleph and Nomads, not to mention stuff like Zhencha, Kuang Shi, Libertos, 45th, Hypolyta, Yojimbo, and Sforza. This, I would say, sufficiently counter-balances the few Bioimmune models you'll face and puts a real consideration when comparing +1DAM to Shock

    Like I said, it's a side-grade. On the face of it the two are fairly equal in performance, but they aren't equal in price. You pay points and SWC to tweak your performance, but this doesn't increase it so you'll have to work a tiny bit harder to make this worth it.
     
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