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Yu Jing in N4

Discussion in 'Yu Jing' started by psychoticstorm, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Do not understand me wrong, there will always be a need to generate regular orders and I do not think it is productive to try and invent problems for the solutions they made with the light-heavies in order to save a few points and make HI super cheap.
    Instead, the main feature of a HI-focused sectorial should always be heavies, therefore there are a few major design decisions I don't quite agree with (inclusion of Core Zhanshi and the choice to have Son-Bae be the designated S3 wildcard). If there is a primary job, a heavy should do it. Support jobs should go to lights or preferably mediums - another way to invoke the feeling of a heavy sectorial is to make it so that everyone has high ARM similar to how most units in O-12 has Mimetism or stronger.

    Above all else, what I don't agree with was that it seems CB needed to include a large amount of stops everywhere when all indications from major tournaments and forums say that HIs are NOT dominating.

    Last but not least regarding the overall design is that a HI sectorial that gravitates towards LI in all formats have an increased need for all profiles to be multi-function and for this reason Zuyong and Shang-Ji should've been redesigned.

    Yes, what I describe would result in a sectorial with perhaps fewer HI than current design, and to go into specifics I'd basically need to design the sectorial from ground up because a lot of the problems stem from how the sectorial works internally rather than individual units.
    However, having below average number of units and above average number of... acquired taste... units doesn't help.
     
  2. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I mean, that's technically true, though the concept of AVA throws a wrench in the works. A Zuyong should, in general, be worth about 5 or so Kuang Shi on the tabletop.
     
  3. SpectralOwl

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    Kuang Shi with Chain Rifles. It gets a lot fairer when you compare Boarding Shotgun KS- 2.5 KS for one Zuyong seems about right. I get that this is probably a controversial opinion, but I think Chain Rifles should be either removed or given a giant price hike since they warp internal balance in almost any unit which has access to them. When was the last time anyone saw the Combi Shaolin or Shotgun Ghazi?
     
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  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    My point stands because I was talking about the Kuang Shi profile everyone runs. The implication of what I was saying supports what you're saying here, however; the points system is busted.
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Kuang Shi aren't underpriced, they are overpriced. Look at the stats and the BSG and you'll see what I mean.
    (Basically, many guns are a bit expensive while the orders are a bit cheap)
     
  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    I'd argue that the chain rifle profile is undercosted and the bsg profile is overcosted.
     
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  7. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Something tells me that you probably won't see it even if all other profiles will be removed.
     
  8. SpectralOwl

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    I'd actually call the BSG profile pretty much spot-on, given the trade-offs involved. Compared to a Zhanshi it trades 1pt of gun and 1 ARM for Fury, 2 PH, Explode, Dogged and Biolocator to end at the exact same price.
     
  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Now, I don't quite agree that the Chain Rifle profile is any more underpriced compared to any of the other units that players love to spam in this game (be they Varangians, Fusiliers, Messenger REMs, or Volunteers) in order to build a massive order count spread over a large number of bodies, but let me theoryhammer on the topic of the Chain Rifle as the primary gun:

    One of the main issues I think CB needs to address in N4 is the concept of a support weapon and a primary weapon. The difference between the two is whether it is the strongest, most potent, weapon in the profile's arsenal or if it is a weaker weapon meant to complement the unit's rangebands or roles.
    Chain Rifle in the current system is priced according to it being a support weapon, it's meant to go on profiles that have a more potent combat alternative such as a Domaru's very strong E/M+Shock CCW melee attack or an SAS' Light Shotgun. It's not used that way because CB also figured that it'd be cool to have a human being cynically used as human shields whose only value is to make a suicide attack like a gangster in a post-apocalypse movie spraying the area with bullets until they die. And that is cool. But the Chain Rifle in that case should no longer be priced as a support weapon because it is the primary weapon. The second gun for Dual Wield is also a support weapon.
    So in my (never quite) humble opinion a unit with only a Chain Rifle should pay a premium for this gun.

    To be clear, this is kind of just a different take on "the order is too cheap" or the more popular "SMGs are too cheap" (it's not only the SMG), but that take on unit cost would have all units increase in cost but at the same time reduce all/most weapons with a cost of.. say.. 6+ points to mitigate the over all increase to some degree.
    It would have been a close enough comparison if the Kuang Shi with BSG weren't Extreme Impetuous. As it is, they could change it to the slightly less thematic Frenzy and you'd not see a points difference.
     
  10. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    What have you been smoking, and where can I get some of that?

    Even the Shang Ji AHD is not sufficiently better/more versatile than a Zuyong Combi+Tinbot to make it worth the 13 points more that it costs.

    SHÀNG JÍ Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 43)
    ZÚYǑNG Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 30)





    That's fine.
     
  11. SpectralOwl

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    It's certainly worth bringing if you're making an IA Fireteam with the giant negative modifiers they can enjoy due to Tinbots and Supportware. It's competing against the 17pt cheaper Haidao KHD, but if you have cause to believe you'll be fighting non-Hacker Hackables much it can easily be worth the price due to the sheer damage an AHD can do, especially when it can flip the odds on Killer Hackers that would usually threaten it.

    I will grant the price issue as a solo piece. I said that the Shang Ji was useful, not affordable nor optimal. I'm really hoping for an ARM/BTS discount in N4 so it can get a start on the latter two demographics, hopefully combined with changes to the game's design which allow the CC and PH it pays through the nose for to be better utilised.
     
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  12. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    I'm considering the Shang-jì AHD for my zuyong team this days, mostly because I fail to see any better option in IA to handle a sphinx or Achilles on dense boards. Even if you're not up against big hackable threats at least you have a flamethrower, and the superior bloated statline is slightly less wasted when you're playing in warband paradise. That's the kind of team I'm going for ATM:

    Invincible Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]5
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
    SHÀNG JÍ Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 43)
    PANGGULING FTO (Repeater) Light Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13)
    HǍIDÀO (Multispectral Visor L2) MULTI Sniper / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 37)

    4 SWC | 165 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    Not especially cheap, but it's cheap enough to let me afford a lu-duan, a daoying hacker, a zhencha, etc...
     
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  13. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    Krit is not a bad alternative vs. TAGs. E-Mitter and E/Maulers are fantastic against them. And he's cheaper.

    SHÀNG JÍ Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 43)
    KOKRAM FTO (Fireteam: Duo) Combi Rifle + E/Mitter, Chain-colt, E/Mauler / 2 Heavy Pistols, Knife. (0 | 39)
     
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  14. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    I really wouldn't recommend trying to stand in the way of Achilles or a sphinx with Krit though. While the E-mitter is somewhat scary for HI/TAGs they'll just obliterate you because of their ODD/TO (they have like 4 dices on 14/15 while you have 2 on 10), and e/maulers won't help you defending a first turn alpha strike. Also he can only protect the area he sees, whereas the AHD can cover your whole DZ thanks to repeaters.
     
  15. Janzerker

    Janzerker Invincible Angry

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    I see your point, but as you mention the table has dense terrain, therefore maybe you prefer to bring a RuiShi and switch that HaiDao sniper with a HaiDao KHD in order to make sure your ShangJI AHD is well protected given the likes that will be protecting that Achiles or Sphinx: Scylla, Danavas, Malignos KHD, Shrouded KHD, ... Also it must be difficult to maneuver that core throughout the table with Pango's big ass.

    I recall a list from @Mahtamori that might interest you:

    Invincible Army
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]10
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Duo, Tactical Awareness) HMG / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (1.5 | 38)
    ZÚYŎNG (Fireteam: Haris, Tactical Awareness) Combi Rifle + 1 TinBot B (Deflector L2) / 2 Breaker Pistols, Knife. (0.5 | 34)
    SHÀNG JÍ Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Combi Rifle + Light Flamethrower / Pistol, Shock CCW. (0.5 | 43)
    HǍIDÀO Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 26)
    SON-BAE Yaókòng Smart Missile Launcher / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 18)
    RUI SHI Spitfire / Electric Pulse. (1 | 20)
    LÙ DUĀN Mk12, Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
    WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    WÈIBĪNG Yaókòng Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 16)
    Zhanshi YĪSHĒNG Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]2 [​IMG]1
    MECH-ENGINEER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)
    YÁOZĂO Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    DĀOYĪNG Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 29)
    WARCOR (Sixth Sense L1) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army

    With so many moving repeaters I don't think you have a need to include the Pango FTO in the core and it would be a shame not to include a Son Bae smart missile with that AHD and Sat Locks, which can also provide a solid long range ARO. All in all I think it's a nice all rounder list with special focus in cyberwar but full of tools, by the hand of Mahtamori. I think it will help you with your current environment meta.


    I think you're missing Sedral's point, which is to have an AHD with SSlvl2. He's trying to prevent stealth HI's and TAGs, maneuvering in dense terrain, to approach his lines. Thanks to the ShangJi AHD gaining SSlvl2 in the 4+ members core he's all of a sudden able to carbonite or oblivion any Achiles, knight, samurai and such kind of nasty units in ARO.
     
    #495 Janzerker, Oct 17, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2019
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  16. Space Ranger

    Space Ranger Well-Known Member

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    While everyone else sits back (in ARO). The one bad thing about it is that the whole fire team must do the same thing. If he does Hack and the rest of shoot, he drops out of the team at the end of the order. But then I suppose you are talking about not in LoS. In which case yes it's great.

    For N4
    I’m just hoping that in N4 Assault Hackers get something actually…Assault-y. Right now the only things they can do are IMM-1 which can be reset out of. Nothing that causes a wound on another hacker. The only thing they can use against a KHD is Carbonite, which can only IMM-1. And if in a bad place he’s not going to be taken out permanently.
     
  17. Sedral

    Sedral Invincible Officier

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    IMO the haidao sniper is pretty much mandatory to handle threats such as mc murder, morlocks, galwegian or myrmidons, who are at their peak on this kind of table. Even in his 0-range and with limited coverage of the battlefield he really does help. Ideally i'd have both, but I can't, unless I go for an haris team with KHD next to the core.

    Well, thing is I don't really plan to move the pangguling around. In this configuration zuyongs are more mid/late game pusher than the usual "14+ orders alpha strike motherfucker" pain train. Once the haidao's dead (or if I feel like I don't need all the fireteam bonuses anymore) I'll just leave the baggage behind and go to town with the haris, using the tac aw orders to make-up for the order loss if I took casualties. Zhencha/Hulangs/mowangs and attack REMs are usually the ones doing most of the work in the early game. I've been playing this way recently and it's been fairy successfull. Until I took a sphinx in the face that is.

    Yeah It's one of my concern, but basically you want to project the hacking threat in a way that the big bad wolf will take unopposed hacking attack if he goes after your other units, while those other units can also threaten him if he decides to go straight for the fireteam (I think flamethrowers are a good option for this, so basically lu-duan and hulangs). With something like a sphinx or a swiss guard you'll also need to discover him before you can hack him, so I guess you also want a bunch of throaway bodies like yaozaos, warcors and chayi to try suicidal discover attempts.
     
  18. Bitmochi

    Bitmochi Well-Known Member

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    Personally I hope they look at Line troopers across all factions. Your Line troopers are suppose to be the main part of your army and rarely are they taken in competitive lists, especially compared to WB units. I think the Zhanshi is probably the most guilty of being just bad, the CC tax is dumb in a game where you really need major number of rules to be viable to use it.

    Personally I think either 5 pt warbands shouldn't be a thing or reduce cost of basic line troopers (let's be honest though decreasing cost of LI is the answer CB doesnt want to sell less models and making it so your lists are smaller kinda does that) I mean I dont even view impetuous to be such a bad thing, like in missions like Biovertech you need those orders to leave your zone and you want to clog the middle with cheap trade pieces. You really dont care if your cheap trade pieces die because they just provided cheap orders and are their to be a nuisance to your opponent.

    I also think tags are being as big as they are... are just inherently at a disadvantage. They rarely see play even with the tactical awareness and Fatality level 1. Hacking programs needs to be reduced imo. I think 2 levels of each program, so Claw 1-2 Shield 1-2 vice 1-3.

    Biovisor needs to be fixed in its current state its not worth it. I mean I still need to spend 2 orders to take someone out of impersonation. This may become unpopular but I think tactical awareness should be taken out of the game. It just becomes very difficult to manage who has what order and I also think the possibility for an opponent to cheat knowingly or unknowingly is high with it. Just make it so that tags generate another order and have +1 dam to their guns. Zero-G should leave the game I have never seen it used.

    I think for vanilla factions weaker link teams can be implemented. So maybe only line troopers can form a link in vanilla. This would make them a viable choice in vanilla and give vanilla factions the opportunity to have the same order efficiency as sectorials but not their lethality.
     
  19. Sangarn

    Sangarn TRIUMcorp CEO
    Warcor

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    this is not napoleonic wars, line trooper are not suppose to be the main part of your army, spec ops are
    but I agree basic troop should be at least less costly than flash pulse bots
     
  20. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Basic line troopers, their close equivalents and some number of remotes are the mainstay of most competitive lists I've seen, excluding specific armies and/or LI lists. I guess it depends on what you call "main part" and how many of them should be there to qualify for constituting one.